[Steve]

Steve:

I finally noticed you manufacture a preamp!  

Could it be that you're self-promoting in this thread?!  

Cool...good move...LOL

We should talk...I love tube preamps...and am always looking for ways to improve my system.

Hi Reflex.

Sounds good. Call anytime. I posted on page 2.

"Good question. First, I hope none think this post is self serving. If so, I apologize. I do have a different method of performing listening tests, much more stringent than others, so my feelings on the subject are different."

And I have my listing at the bottom. My apologizes if you or anyone else feels misled.
I think, however, my view is correct regardless.

Take care my friend.

[Freo-1]

No disrespect, what "Based on what?" You provide no engineering data to support your claim.

Just a hint... this ain't "the lab" ...

Now, let's stop the arguing about these powercables.
People are voicing their opinions, you don't agree, state so, and move on!!

Please.. 

(I know, I did make this whole thing start... sorry about that!!  )

And I have designed a few A/C cleaners and cables, only DIY but still, there is a scientific approach
behind it all, I assure you.. it is sound. But that will have to be talked about in another thread..

Imperial

You're right. The power cable issue should be discussed in another thread. (I've looked into this as well, and power supply filtering is something I'm on board with).

If changing a power cable results in the owner noticing an improvement, then by all means, enjoy it!

Now, back to the discussion at hand

[Don_S]

OK, Danger signs.  Hot topic.  Less than 24 hours old and on page six already.  I have not had time to read all six pages but what I have read reminds me of age-old arguments.  Let me try it from a different perspective.

I have had TacT Audio room correction for many years.  It lets me see (on my computer) differences caused by anything in the signal from the preamp to the end. The TacT preamp generates the test pulses so the source is not part of the measurement equation.  Power conditioners and dedicated AC lines are part of the equation. 

I agree everything in the chain is important.  No weak links allowed.  But it is the room and speaker that define the playing field.  Changing amplifiers can slightly alter the magnitude of the peaks and dips and sometimes very slightly shift them in the process. But in the long run the peaks and dips remain.  I wish all of you could see a room measurement and play with equipment changes and look at the results.

Swapping wires does not even register in the TacT measurement.  While the changes are important (and audible) the subtle nuances are not discernable in the gross measurement.

Things that change the measurement curve significantly include:  Acoustic room treatment.  Furniture placement.  And the biggy:  Are you ready for it?


The speakers and their placement in the room.

The speakers have to fit the room (which is already there) and the individual's listening preferences.  Then the amp has to match the speakers.  A good source should sound good in any system when the rest of it is set up properly.  In other words a good source should be somewhat portable.  Witness systems with several different sources (vinly and digital) that all sound excellent.  That is because the rest of the system was set up properly (i.e. the speakers and acoustic treatment were correctly chosen and placed).

If I were to set up an entirely new system now I would absolutely start with choosing the speakers. Then I would revisit the positioning of my room treatments.  I believe the source and other components are absolutely critical but with the wrong speaker choice there is no hope of fixing it with any source.  I also feel confident that my source will sound great if I get the rest of the system set up properly.

[darrenyeats]

Steve, I suppose what you're proposing would change the equation. But 99.9% of people are in fact using their analogue stages...including preamp users.

If you want to argue a different model that probably deserves its own thread.
Darren

[reflex]

OK, Danger signs.  Hot topic.  Less than 24 hours old and on page six already.  I have not had time to read all six pages but what I have read reminds me of age-old arguments.  Let me try it from a different perspective.

I have had TacT Audio room correction for many years.  It lets me see (on my computer) differences caused by anything in the signal from the preamp to the end. The preamp generates the test pulses so the source is not part of the measurement equation.  Power conditioners and dedicated AC lines are.  I wish all of you could see a room measurement and play with equipment changes and look at the results.

I agree everything in the chain is important.  No weak links allowed.  But it is the room and speaker that define the playing field.  Changing amplifiers can slightly alter the magnitude of the peaks and dips and sometimes very slightly shift them in the process. But in the long run the peaks and dips remain.  I wish all of you could see a room measurement and play with equipment changes and look at the results.

Swapping wires do not even register in the TacT measurement.  While the changes are important (and audible) the subtle nuances are not discernable in the gross measurement.

Things that change the measurement curve significantly include:  Acoustic room treatment.  Furniture placement.  And the biggy:  Are you ready for it?


The speakers and their placement in the room.

The speakers have to fit the room (which is already there) and the individual's listening preferences.  Then the amp has to match the speakers.  A good source should sound good in any system when the rest of it is set up properly.  In other words a good source should be somewhat portable.  Witness systems with several different sources (vinly and digital) that all sound excellent.  That is because the rest of the system was set up properly (i.e. the speakers and acoustic treatment were correctly chosen and placed).

If I were to set up an entirely new system now I would absolutely start with choosing the speakers. Then I would revisit the positioning of my room treatments.  I believe the source and other components are absolutely critical but with the wrong speaker choice there is no hope of fixing it with any source.  I also feel confident that my source will sound great if I get the rest of the system set up properly.

Thanks Doug for this post.  As you point out, it's the speakers and the room that have the greatest effect on the end result.  And, as you pointed out as well, things we can hear do not always show up even with a sophisticated measurement regime.  I've always been bothered by those who feel we can measure everything we might perceive and because of this believe anything anyone might think they hear is some sort of aberation because they know of no means to measure it.  They seem to feel that the scientific/engineering community has already found all the answers to all the questions we might ask.

 

[Freo-1]

Steve, I suppose what you're proposing would change the equation. But 99.9% of people are in fact using their analogue stages...including preamp users.

If you want to argue a different model that probably deserves its own thread.
Darren

Yep. Agree. That's why I posted the thread about the Sony DA9000ES topology. 

[reflex]

Steve:

I finally noticed you manufacture a preamp!  

Could it be that you're self-promoting in this thread?!  

Cool...good move...LOL

We should talk...I love tube preamps...and am always looking for ways to improve my system.

Hi Reflex.

Sounds good. Call anytime. I posted on page 2.

"Good question. First, I hope none think this post is self serving. If so, I apologize. I do have a different method of performing listening tests, much more stringent than others, so my feelings on the subject are different."

And I have my listing at the bottom. My apologizes if you or anyone else feels misled.
I think, however, my view is correct regardless.

Take care my friend.

No...not at all.  When you've spent extensive time examining something and feel you have found a more valid answer, you need to share it with all of us.  I most always feel I'm right in my views as well...until someone proves me wrong.  And I'm constantly looking for that proof.  It's the only way we learn and evolve our understanding of the subject.  This may sound strange, but I love being wrong....that means I've learned something new.  

I'll ring you up next week from the shop...

[Freo-1]

OK, Danger signs.  Hot topic.  Less than 24 hours old and on page six already.  I have not had time to read all six pages but what I have read reminds me of age-old arguments.  Let me try it from a different perspective.

I have had TacT Audio room correction for many years.  It lets me see (on my computer) differences caused by anything in the signal from the preamp to the end. The preamp generates the test pulses so the source is not part of the measurement equation.  Power conditioners and dedicated AC lines are.  I wish all of you could see a room measurement and play with equipment changes and look at the results.

I agree everything in the chain is important.  No weak links allowed.  But it is the room and speaker that define the playing field.  Changing amplifiers can slightly alter the magnitude of the peaks and dips and sometimes very slightly shift them in the process. But in the long run the peaks and dips remain.  I wish all of you could see a room measurement and play with equipment changes and look at the results.

Swapping wires do not even register in the TacT measurement.  While the changes are important (and audible) the subtle nuances are not discernable in the gross measurement.

Things that change the measurement curve significantly include:  Acoustic room treatment.  Furniture placement.  And the biggy:  Are you ready for it?


The speakers and their placement in the room.

The speakers have to fit the room (which is already there) and the individual's listening preferences.  Then the amp has to match the speakers.  A good source should sound good in any system when the rest of it is set up properly.  In other words a good source should be somewhat portable.  Witness systems with several different sources (vinly and digital) that all sound excellent.  That is because the rest of the system was set up properly (i.e. the speakers and acoustic treatment were correctly chosen and placed).

If I were to set up an entirely new system now I would absolutely start with choosing the speakers. Then I would revisit the positioning of my room treatments.  I believe the source and other components are absolutely critical but with the wrong speaker choice there is no hope of fixing it with any source.  I also feel confident that my source will sound great if I get the rest of the system set up properly.

Thanks Doug for this post.  As you point out, it's the speakers and the room that have the greatest effect on the end result.  And, as you pointed out as well, things we can hear do not always show up even with a sophisticated measurement regime.  I've always been bothered by those who feel we can measure everything we might perceive and because of this believe anything anyone might think they hear is some sort of aberation because they know of no means to measure it.  They seem to feel that the scientific/engineering community has already found all the answers to all the questions we might ask.

 

Doug did indeed make a lot of good points here.  Notice that he mentioned using measuring equipment to get the sound "in the ballpark", and knowledge (based on acoustic principals) to get things closer to right.

Let's not go down the subjective vs. objective argument (it's a loser, no one wins). Suffice to say good sound always is a result of good engineering practice, and it safe to assume that equipment that measures poor does not sound good. 

[reflex]

a very safe assumption, indeed....

[Housteau]

For me it would be a close tie for #1 between: 
a)  the source (LP or CD) - without a good source not much else matters
b)  speakers - they speak for themselves, pardon the pun
c)  room acoustics and treatments - once again, without this not much else matters

2  Pre-amp
3  Amp
4  good power to the room is more than just the outlets
5  cables and wire - good for tuning when everything else is correct
6  power cords

I have just quoted myself.  I guess I am allowed to do that .  Anyway, after reading all of the posts I still stand by what I first posted, but I wanted to add something else.  It is SYNERGY.  I think this is often overlooked, or at least greatly misunderstood.  I have often found certain components to be just ok by themselves, but place them working together and whow, then there is magic.  It can come as a complete surprise and often does.  There is a lot of hit and miss with this hobby of ours.  It is very easy to create a fine sounding system, but much harder to achieve a great sounding one.  I really believe that this greatness comes from this synergy of individual components, the listening space listener interface, and ones ability to recognize what is actually being heard.

[Freo-1]

a very safe assumption, indeed....

Cheers, Mate! 

I've worked with Audio in one capacity or another for too many years now, and one of my observations is as follows:

Sound processing (in my line of work, Sonar) is ninety some percent science, and the rest is art. So, what do we always argue about?..The art of the science, that's what. 

The synergy comments are "spot on". Back in the day, there were a lot of good knowledgeable audio dealers who knew what they were doing. There were rags like "Audio", which actually took the time to explain design principals, provided graphs, math, etc. on the whole scope of audio recording and reproduction.

That has all but disappeared from the scene. We are sort of left to fend for ourselves.

[Don_S]

Thanks for the kudos guys.  I wanted to present a different perspective to cut through some of the emotion around the topic.  It is hard to spend as much time around room treatment and digital room correction as I have and not realize that is where the battle is won or lost.

And by the way--it is Don, not Doug.  Named after a famous duck.

[Daygloworange]

Like it was mentioned earlier in this thread, a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

Building a system is no different than building a house. Both need a good, strong foundation.

The speaker room interface is the what has the largest influence on what you hear. The listening room is part of your system, (not just where your system resides) and must be viewed as such. The speaker/room interface is where the rubber meets the road. Room acoustics are critical. Low noise floor is critical as well.

Of course front end component choice is critical as well (all the components of an audio chain are critical), but with an improper speaker/room interface, subjective evaluation of source components is limited to your delivery system, the speaker/room interface.

Start from the foundation, and work your way up.

Cheers

[reflex]

Thanks for the kudos guys.  I wanted to present a different perspective to cut through some of the emotion around the topic.  It is hard to spend as much time around room treatment and digital room correction as I have and not realize that is where the battle is won or lost.

And by the way--it is Don, not Doug.  Named after a famous duck.

Uh...   sorry Don....

[grsimmon]

Bigger spaces represent difference in order of importance...

listener (trained ear, musical tastes, abilities to hear)


the music (genre, selection, artist, quality of recording)


speakers (only/primary transducer, highest distortion, most colored, most frequency limited)

room (control over what/when/how loud, isolation, size, shape, design features)

source (most complex, possibly another transducer, vinyl/CD/computer characteristics)
pre/power amp (heart of synergy issues, command over speakers)

power (abberrations are a localized case by case issue)
wiring ("shouldn't have to be an issue" but is and can be made into a bigger issue than is should)

This is the correct answer,  100% dead on  - nice job.  And yes I mean correct in every sense of the word.   :icon_twisted:FLAME WAR ON! just kidding.   The only other factor I would add which tends to get left out is reliablity / warranty / customer service,   which is why I love companies like Bryston and Thiel.   

[SET Man]

Bigger spaces represent difference in order of importance...

listener (trained ear, musical tastes, abilities to hear)
 
......

Hey!

    What do you mean by "trained ear"? Training in what way? 

Take care,
Buddy

[Geardaddy]

I have just quoted myself.  I guess I am allowed to do that .  Anyway, after reading all of the posts I still stand by what I first posted, but I wanted to add something else.  It is SYNERGY.  I think this is often overlooked, or at least greatly misunderstood.  I have often found certain components to be just ok by themselves, but place them working together and whow, then there is magic.  It can come as a complete surprise and often does.  There is a lot of hit and miss with this hobby of ours.  It is very easy to create a fine sounding system, but much harder to achieve a great sounding one.  I really believe that this greatness comes from this synergy of individual components, the listening space listener interface, and ones ability to recognize what is actually being heard.

Amen....

[Freo-1]

Bigger spaces represent difference in order of importance...

listener (trained ear, musical tastes, abilities to hear)
 
......

Hey!

    What do you mean by "trained ear"? Training in what way? 

Take care,
Buddy

I was going to jump on that too, Buddy.

I had some some folks over today. One of them was a young man who was 17, and had never heard a quality audio system before.  He immediately was taken aback when he herd the music, and wanted to know more about it. I was only to happy to spread the word that "there are quality audio systems out there", and no one should be stuck with whatever happens to be on sale at Best Buy. 

I am quite sure most 17 year old's hearing is better than most of us older dudes (ya think?)

I informed him there are web sites out there where one can learn about high quality audio, including some tube DIY kits.  He went away impressed, and will be spreading the word to his mates. There are a lot of folks who have never been exposed to quality audio reproduction, but sure as hell know it when they hear it.

[*Scotty*]

The OP of this thread has a core premise of an Ordinary People Audio Club. Implicit in this approach to the audio hobby is dealing with the real world condition often faced by audiophiles, a lack of a space solely dedicated to listening to music. Many audiophiles have to listen to their music in a living room or a family room that cannot be acoustically treated as though it was a dedicated listening room. The placement of the furniture,furnishings and finally the speakers to produce the best results in the room you have your system in should be emphasized. These three variables are only thing many audiophiles have to work with to optimize the room/speaker interface.
   Both Synergy and Voicing have been mentioned in this thread,synergy is an unintended consequence of component non-linearity. An actual linear component is often unrecognized when placed within the context of a non-linear system and is frequently faulted for passing a problem downstream. Synergy is best described as zigging and zagging via trial and error to an end you can live with. As most audiophiles have noticed, relying on synergy for a good result is a frustrating experience. "Voicing" an electronic component often compounds the difficulty of assembling a linear system as it represents a departure from neutrality. Most electronic designers, if they are trying to create a transparent and neutral circuit,don't intentionally deviate from this goal. Speaker designers who are trying to build a low distortion transparent loudspeaker don't design in a deviation from flat response or knowingly compound the non-linearity that the speaker system inherently has. To state the obvious most manufacturers try to build electronics that are compatible with as wide a spectrum of speakers as possible. The same approach to compatibility holds true for most loudspeaker designers. Any time a manufacturer starts talking about how they voiced their product an alarm goes off for me.
Scotty
 

[doug s.]

Thanks for the kudos guys.  I wanted to present a different perspective to cut through some of the emotion around the topic.  It is hard to spend as much time around room treatment and digital room correction as I have and not realize that is where the battle is won or lost.

And by the way--it is Don, not Doug.  Named after a famous duck.

this really is not all that different than what i said in my initial post, even tho i feel preamp is first in importance, & sources is second.  why?  because what happens if you move your stereo into another room?  if you have nailed the first two - preamp & sources - nothing happens with them; they will make the journey to the new room.  but, when it comes to the speakers/amps/room treatments, you have to start over.  so, while i agree that the speaker/room interface will have the biggest overall impact in the sound of your system, to get the best out of it, whatever speaker/room interface you are dealing with, you better have the best preamp & source components you can find.  as i said, this is pretty-much what i awreddy stated in my first post.

re: using something like a transporter in a computer-based digital rig, all i can say is i would still rather have it run thru an excellent preamp, partly for reasons stated by steve sammit, and partly because, of the three sources i listen to, my digital source is the one that gets used third-most.   

regarding the comment that adding something to the audio chain can never make it sound better, i respectfully beg to differ.  because recorded music is trying to sound like real music, whether that occurred live or in a recording studio.  sometimes, adding a component will make it sound more like music, & less like a recording, even tho it may technically be less "accurate".  after all, if it were perfectly accurate, perhaps it would sound more like a recording & less like real three-dimensional music?   

doug s. - yes i am the doug, not named after a duck...