BDA-1 Word Clock output

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FM Acoustics

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BDA-1 Word Clock output
« on: 27 Mar 2008, 02:39 am »
James, I've saw the press release for the BDA-1 DAC and I was kind of disappointed because it doesn't list an Word Clock output. Didn't you consider it was necessary? Esoteric, dCS, EMM, DAD, Prism have this feature and I think it would be great if you added the Word Clock output to the BDA-1, especially when using it in a PC setup with a Lynx or RME card so you can slave the card to the DAC and minimize jitter. Or at least you could release a Pro and a Consumer version of the BDA-1, with the Pro version having the Word Clock output.

I wonder why not more manufacturers provide an Word Clock output on their DACs...

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #1 on: 27 Mar 2008, 10:45 am »
HI,

Yes we are thinking about adding a wordclock to the Pro version at a future date.  There is a connector on the back to allow for it when we are ready to implement it.

james


FM Acoustics

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #2 on: 27 Mar 2008, 11:15 am »
Thats great James!

Do you have an approximate date for the release of the Pro version with the Word Clock output?
Also, will this version be more expensive than the Consumer one?

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #3 on: 27 Mar 2008, 11:57 am »
HI,

Not sure on the Pro version release date. 
The consumer units we start shipping next month.  I would assume there would be some difference in price but we have not investigated that aspect yet.

james
« Last Edit: 27 Mar 2008, 02:06 pm by James Tanner »

FM Acoustics

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #4 on: 30 Mar 2008, 05:45 am »
James, I've just read the info on the Lessloss page regarding the slaving of a soundcard to a DAC and they say that if the soundcard can take a SuperClock input, it's better to slave it to the SuperClock instead of the WordClock.

So it would be nice if the BDA-1 would give the option to select the output as WordClock or SuperClock.

I understand that you don't have a specific date right now for the release of this version of the BDA-1, but being in the market for a stereo DAC with an WC/SC output could you at least tell if it will be released this year?

This DAD AX24 for example can also output a SuperClock of 11.2896 to 12.288 Mhz through the WC connector.




James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #5 on: 30 Mar 2008, 11:14 am »
James, I've just read the info on the Lessloss page regarding the slaving of a soundcard to a DAC and they say that if the soundcard can take a SuperClock input, it's better to slave it to the SuperClock instead of the WordClock.

So it would be nice if the BDA-1 would give the option to select the output as WordClock or SuperClock.

I understand that you don't have a specific date right now for the release of this version of the BDA-1, but being in the market for a stereo DAC with an WC/SC output could you at least tell if it will be released this year?

This DAD AX24 for example can also output a SuperClock of 11.2896 to 12.288 Mhz through the WC connector.





Hi FM,

If you do not mind me asking what are you synchronizing the DAC to?
I would say we are at least a year away from releasing the Pro version.

james

FM Acoustics

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #6 on: 30 Mar 2008, 02:20 pm »
I just want to be able to slave the source to the DAC so the clock generated by the DAC will also act as a Master Clock. In this way the DAC will not have to extract the clock from the incoming AES or SPDIF signal, the generated clock will be very close to the DAC chip so the jitter will be minimized considerably.

There are also outboard Master Clock generators like the Apogee Big Ben but this is useful in a situation where you have many devices to synchronize; in case of a single source + DAC it's better to slave directly the source to the DAC, thus the need for an WordClock/SuperClock output on the DAC, instead of slaving both the source and the DAC to an external Master Clock generator.

Check the Lessloss page for more info on the benefits of slaving the source to the DAC (scroll down the page for the articles)

www.lessloss.com

The source slaving to the DAC is beneficial also for CD transports not only soundcards and in fact Esoteric, dCS and Marantz (on their high end models) offer an Word Clock input on their transports and players.












James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #7 on: 30 Mar 2008, 03:49 pm »
Hi FM,

Yes thank you I am familiar with 'lossless' website.

In fact in our literature on the Bryston CD player we talk about similar advantages when you clock the drive and the DAC as a system- see below an excerpt from the CD Brochure:

ADVANTAGE
The advantage of an all in one box solution for a CD Player (as opposed to a separate outboard DAC and Drive) is the elimination of jitter. For optimum performance the Drive and DAC must use the same MASTER CLOCK. If the clock signal of the drive is not synchronized with the clock signal from the DAC then jitter develops. In external DACs the digital input must be re-clocked in order to reduce the jitter. Jitter is defined as mistiming of the digital signal. The timing of all those ones and zeros is of extreme importance. It isn’t enough to get the bits right; those bits have to be converted back into music with the same timing reference as when the music was first digitized. These timing errors (jitter) are the bane of quality audio. With the Bryston CD player the master clock and the drive are synchronized perfectly to eliminate any possibility of jitter affecting the sound quality of the player.


As I understand  it (I am not a digital engineer)a Super Clock is the correct way to go if you want to optimize a specific Source to the DAC and in fact we are going to be building an outboard CD Drive that will synchronize with our External BDA-1 DAC. In order to allow multiple sources to synchronize to a single 'master clock' you need the Word Clock.

If you want the DAC to Clock to the Source then you have to know the exact clocking frequency of the Source component which means a 'Custom' approach to the Bryston BDA-1.  This is something we have been thinking about and may offer down the road.

james
 

FM Acoustics

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #8 on: 31 Mar 2008, 02:33 am »
If you want the DAC to Clock to the Source then you have to know the exact clocking frequency of the Source component which means a 'Custom' approach to the Bryston BDA-1.  This is something we have been thinking about and may offer down the road.

james

You're right, in order for the DAC to be the Master you have to know the sampling frequency of the source file so you can select it for the DAC to output it. I don't get it why it would need to be a  custom solution though. Can't the BDA-1 be made so that when it's set to Master you could select from the front panel between 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz and 192kHz sample rates and SuperClock ones?

For example, when set to Master the Prism DA-2 DAC lets you select from the front panel buttons between 44.1, 48, 88.2 and 96kHs sample rates (96kHz is the maximum supported). The problem is this thing goes for 10K US$, not exactly the amount I'd like to spend for a stereo DAC :lol:

The Lynx Aurora DAC lets you select from the front panel between 44.1 and 192kHz sample rates when set to Master or Slave, but this is a multichannel AD/DA with DB25 connectors and I don't need multichannel, not to mention that you have to use bulky snakes with it.





James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #9 on: 31 Mar 2008, 02:36 am »
Thanks FM - I will certainly look into these issues with engineering to see what we can do with the 'Pro version'.

james

FM Acoustics

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #10 on: 31 Mar 2008, 02:52 am »
Thank you James!
Hope I didn't bother you too much with these things but this is an important feature I'd really want to see on the Bryston DAC.

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #11 on: 31 Mar 2008, 11:20 am »
Thank you James!
Hope I didn't bother you too much with these things but this is an important feature I'd really want to see on the Bryston DAC.

No bother at all - this type of customer feedback gives us a great resource of information and ideas.

james

FM Acoustics

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #12 on: 6 Apr 2008, 07:06 am »
James, I just want to also add these two schematics I've found on Stereophile in a jitter related article. This way I think would more clear for everyone why slaving the transport to the DAC is beneficial.

In this picture is represented the transport and DAC working the traditional way in which the DAC has to extract the clock from the incoming AES/SPDIF signal.


In this other picture you can see that when the transport is slaved to the DAC, the DAC doesn't have to extract the clock through a PLL from the incoming AES/SPDIF signal and the DAC chip is controlled directly by the oscillator inside the DAC machine which will provide a much better clock than a PLL could, especially when you use a high quality low jitter oscillator.


Also, did you thought of making the BDA-1 able to work with your external MPS2 power supply? This way all the sensitive DAC circuits would be isolated from the PSU, just like your preamp...

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #13 on: 6 Apr 2008, 11:27 am »
Hi FM,

Thanks for the drawings.

Regarding your question on using the MPS-2 power supply to power the External DAC.

Initially we were going to use the MPS-2 power supply (optional) with our CD Player as well. When we were researching the CD Player we found two issues.  Mixing the 'Audio Grounds' and the 'Digital Grounds' did not provide as good a performance as keeping them totally separate. Also Analog circuits want a 'high voltage' power source and the Digital circuits (drive and electronics) performed better with a 'high current' power source.

So in our CD Player (as well as our new External DAC) we use two independent Power supplies and Ground plains (one analog one digital) - each optimized for their specific task. So using the MPS-2 as a generic power supply was not really the best way to ring the last bit of performance out of our CD Player and External DAC.

james




« Last Edit: 6 Apr 2008, 01:24 pm by James Tanner »

FM Acoustics

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #14 on: 6 Apr 2008, 01:20 pm »
Thank you James for the details. Well, I didn't think the external PSU would be a must have, just thought that the isolation would be good for the sound quality but these arguments make a valid point for your choice of going with internal separated power supplies for the Analog and Digital circuits.

JayNYC

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #15 on: 20 Apr 2008, 02:30 pm »
Hi.  I stumbled onto this thread by googling "dacs output word clock"

One of the most exciting transports is the Slimdevices (Logitech) Transporter.  It's the high end version of the Squeezebox and it features a word clock input.  This would allow the Transporter to be slaved to a word clock of a DAC for near-zero jitter, in theory.  Right now, there are very few DACs on the market that have a word clock output; and those that do are some of the most expensive made, ie: dCs.

Adding a word clock output to the BDA-1 would be a great feature.  If the Transporter is any indication, jitter reduction, clocks, etc.. are going more and more toward the higher end consumer market and not just for professional applications.  Someone more astute than me could call this a trend - Bryston, why not be "in-line" or "just ahead" of the trend and offer a word clock output for those who are curious and would enjoy the optionality?

FM Acoustics

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #16 on: 21 Apr 2008, 05:04 pm »
I found it funny the explanation given in Stereophile in a review from 1992 to the Linn Karik/Numerik transport/DAC of why not more manufacturers provide clock inputs and outputs. I think Word Clock inputs and outputs should become standard on every transport and DAC, not just the super expensive stuff from dCS, Esoteric etc

In Sync!

The Linn CD player completely sidesteps a problem that plagues all other CD transport/processor combinations: jitter in the recovered clock. Linn's method is so simple I'm surprised no one else has done it before. In fact, I'm surprised that the S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Interface Format) standard didn't incorporate this technique when the interface standard was established. But before looking at Linn's solution, let's see how a conventional transport and D/A converter interface works.

The S/PDIF output of a CD transport—the RCA jack marked "Digital Out"—carries left and right audio information and subcode. All digital transmission must have a clock timing reference, and the S/PDIF signal is no exception. In the S/PDIF format, the clock is embedded in the audio data. (It's actually more accurate to say the audio data are embedded in the clock signal.)

In the digital processor, the S/PDIF receiver chip (usually a Yamaha chip) gets this signal, strips out the subcode and audio data, and generates a new clock based on the incoming clock by using a Phase Locked Loop (PLL) circuit. This clock "recovered" by the PLL then serves as the timing reference for the entire converter. PLLs, however, have an inherent inaccuracy: their operation is based on an error signal and thus they are not perfectly locked to the incoming clock. Further, because the PLL changes the phase of the processor's Voltage Controlled Oscillator (VCO) to match that of the incoming clock, it will attempt to follow jitter components in the transport's data stream. When used in a standard implementation, the ubiquitous Yamaha chip typically generates between two and five nanoseconds (2-5ns) of clock jitter.

The problem arises when the digital words are converted to analog at the D/A converter chips (DACs). The word clock, a subdivision of the master clock signal, tells the DACs when to convert the data word at its input to an analog output signal. Because the clock has jitter, the timing of that conversion will be somewhat in error, the result being that the analog output waveform will be misshapen. Further, clock jitter increases the noise floor and creates sidebands on either side of the audio frequency being processed, the frequencies of which are related to those present in the jitter. These spurious sidebands are not harmonically related to the music and may be responsible for the hash and hardness so often heard from digital audio. The theoretical maximum allowable jitter for a 16-bit word length is 200 picoseconds—about 1/15 the amount of jitter produced by the ubiquitous Yamaha receiver chip.

Note that the amount of jitter and frequency distribution of the jitter create an analog-like variability in the final analog output signal. The argument that digital audio either works perfectly or doesn't work at all—"it's the same ones and zeros"—is a fallacy. I urge you to read JA's superb article on clock jitter starting on p.179 of Vol.13 No.12 (December 1990). It includes a full discussion of this phenomenon as well as graphs of computer simulations of the effects of varying amounts of jitter (footnote 1). The "Industry Update" on the discovery of Logic-Induced Modulation (LIM) in Vol.14 No.9 is also illustrative.

Now, if jitter in the recovered clock is such a problem, isn't there a better way to do it? Yes. The solution is to generate a clean, relatively jitter-free clock in the D/A converter, and force the data source—the CD transport—to lock to this reference. Instead of making the transport the master and the converter the slave, this technique reverses those roles. Instead of sending the clock in the data, the processor sends a clock to the transport on a separate cable.

If the solution's so simple, why doesn't every manufacturer use this technique? One answer may be that processor manufacturers don't include a clock output because no transports have a clock input. Similarly, transport manufacturers don't have a clock input because processor manufacturers don't provide a clock output. Further, there is no standard for what kind of signal the processor should output.

FM Acoustics

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Re: BDA-1 Word Clock output
« Reply #17 on: 21 Apr 2008, 05:19 pm »
Hi.  I stumbled onto this thread by googling "dacs output word clock"...

Check this thread on the Slim Devices forum if you didn't found it already; it's about slaving the Transporter to a DAC with an Word Clock output.

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39770&highlight=word+clock