[RoyC]

Hi all;

I have recently completed construction of my gk1.  I am going to house the transformers in a separate enclosure.  I will also be using an external remote volume control (Placette).  Becuse of these two design factors I am going to need more hookup wire than what was supplied with the kit.  Since I have to buy wire I might as well get some really good stuff.  I was looking at the partsconnection and they have some Cardas 21.5 guage copper litz hookup wire.  It is about $1.50 per foot.  Would this be a good choice for the wires to hook up the signal leads to the RCA connectors?

[SamL]

Just to let you know that the litz (which is not conductive) is very hard to remove. Well, not with my cheap 20w soldering iron that have a switch to 200w. I tried a gas tourch but that melt the teflon and made a mass.
I was told that soldering pot is the way to go but I can't find them in NZ.
I am thinking of using a small metal cup with gas burner and melt the solder in there. The problem is I can't control the tempreture and not sure if this is a workable solution.

Sam

[SamL]

Oh yes! Although the teflon cat5 wire may sound too cheap to be true, they are very good. I have just build a cat5 IC and compare that to ChrisVH fine silver IC (32ga) that I've got. The cat5 is a little bit lauder and with better clearity in all frequency except the very high freq. It is also more forward sounding. The silver got better definition on the cymbals and they are more melow.
The interesting part will be comparing a 24ga silver with the cat5 but the cost will be a lot higher.

Have fun,
Sam

[andyr]

Hi all;

I have recently completed construction of my gk1.  I am going to house the transformers in a separate enclosure.  I will also be using an external remote volume control (Placette).  Becuse of these two design factors I am going to need more hookup wire than what was supplied with the kit.  Since I have to buy wire I might as well get some really good stuff.  I was looking at the partsconnection and they have some Cardas 21.5 guage copper litz hookup wire.  It is about $1.50 per foot.  Would this be a good choice for the wires to hook up the signal leads to the RCA connectors?

Roy,

You might also like to try Michael Percy, who sells XLO hookup wire.  This is teflon coated, solid core, bare Cu, and comes in a few different wire guages.  I use this instead of teflon Cat5 but I have never done a direct comparison of, say, a 1m interconnect with this vs using 'cheap' Cat5.

Whichever you decide to use, just make sure you twist the '+' and '-' wires together tightly (using a drill is a good way).

Regards,

Andy

[RoyC]

hmmm -it sounds like the litz is similar to the enameled wire I got as part of the Bottlehead Foreplay kit I built a couple of years ago.  I ended up not using it because it was just too diffidult to strip.  Guess I will pass on the cardas then.  Glad I decided to get some input from you guys before ordering .  Maybe Hugh knows best and I will look around the net for a source of the CAT5 wire

[AKSA]

Roy,

CAT5E is my choice.  I use it all the time now.  You can spend absurd amounts on special 'audiophile' grade wire, but CAT5E will give you just about all the qualities at bedrock prices.

I can sell you up to 5m if you are interested.  Cost is $AUD3 per metre, around $US2.10.  This can be shipped in an inexpensive padded bag.

Cheers,

Hugh

[mb]

I'm sure the answer is somewhere on the board, if I really searched, but here goes anyway:

IYO, what are the qualites / characteristics of the Cat5E compare to copper/silver/teflon hookup wire, single core copper, single strand pure silver, multistrand OCC copper, etc? I know that the question is too open -- not all OCC copper hookup sounds the same, ditto for others, but is there a particular quality to Cat5E that makes it so highly rated by AKSA builders?

TIA!

[AKSA]

Mervin,

This is a can of words, covering just about every subjective in the industry.  

In light of available time, strong feelings in the minds of many on these topics, and my own obsession with amp/preamp topologies and NOT wire, I'll leave this one alone......!  
 
Anyone else here willing to enter the Lions lair?    

Cheers,

Hugh

[Malcolm Fear]

In for a penny, in for a pound.

I have fiddled with a few types of wire for interconnects and speakers.

The best place to learn about cables is Audio Asylum.

http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html

Jon Risch has a lot of good articles about cables.

http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index2.htm

Chris VenHaus uses many strands of CAT 5 for speaker cables

http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html

Chimera Labs have highly regarded cryo treated enamelled copper wire. They have very interesting articles on braiding

http://www.chimeralabs.com/

I pinched ideas from all of the above. I untwist the CAT 5 into 8 individual strands. I then use the Chimera techniques for braiding.
I ended up with 4 strands of CAT 5 (teflon coated) for signal hook up and interconnects.
I use 8 strands for speaker cables and speaker hookup.
Any more than 8 strands (speaker cable) with an AKSA power amp and it won't sound very good.

I have auditioned the Jon Risch recipe for speakers and interconnects.
I prefer CAT 5.

I have tried the Chimera for interconnects. I couldn't hear a difference between Chimera and 4 strands of CAT 5. Other people in America, much prefer the Chimera.

[/url]

[Tinker]

Hi all;

Would this be a good choice for the wires to hook up the signal leads to the RCA connectors?

I use a single strand of 30ga wire wrap wire with Kynar (a teflon derivative) insualtion. This has about the same conducting area as a circuit board trace, and so is a good match for internal wiring. You can easily twist pairs of these for noise induction reasons if you want.

Very little capacitance and unmeasurable skin effect at audio frequencies.

Worth a try. It's cheap! Can also get pure teflon, but it's pricier and harder to strip.

T.

[Malcolm Fear]

Hi Tinker
I recollect an article regarding Kynar. It wasn't very positive.

http://www.fliptronics.com/tip0003.html

-----
One quick note about wire wrap wire being used for other purposes: the Kynar insulation used on 99% of all wire wrap wire is piezo electric! Digital gear that sits in situations were it's not exposed to much in the way of vibrations is ok, and so is simple analog. However if it is a moderately high vibration application, or (for the audio nuts among us, me included) audio applications, it will generate small to medium voltages in response to the vibration. I found this out last spring trying to build some touch sensors for a project for my girl friend. I had taken about 8 feet and zigzagged it across the surface of a piece of copper clad board. After blowing the FET opamp input that was supposed to sense the additional hum when the wire was contacted, I put the scope on it. And found that I could get 15-20 volt spikes between the board as ground and the wire as signal! 1 to 3 volts was to be had with gentle taps on the board. Yeesh! In the end I used a totally different scheme, but I now have a couple of ideas for the wire wrap sensor. I have a musician friend who wants to hear what it sounds like.........
----

[Tinker]

Hi Tinker
I recollect an article regarding Kynar. It wasn't very positive.

http://www.fliptronics.com/tip0003.html

One quick note about wire wrap wire being used for other purposes: the Kynar insulation used on 99% of all wire wrap wire is piezo electric! Digital gear that sits in situations were it's not exposed to much in the way of vibrations is ok, and so is simple analog. However if it is a moderately high vibration application, or (for the audio nuts among us, me included) aud ...

Hmmm... I suppose if vibration becomes a problem then go for the more expensive teflon stuff (it's about twice the price), but its 32ga which is even thinner!!! Skin effect low enough for 96KHz! Dielectric loss is more than PTFE though...

I will have to try and measure piezo effect myself and see what happens. I seem to recall that it's a dipolar molecule and its piezoelectric properties are dependent on the way the molecules are oriented during manufacture. I know they do make sensor wires with the stuff, but this has something added to it. The stuff I've seen (and used) it in mostly is wiring up PC cards for applications up to about 30MHz.

I'll get back to you with measurements as soon as I can whip up little jig.

T.

[PSP]

Tinker,
I like to use Vampire magnet wire, guages between 20-26.5 for hookup and interconnects.  This wire is supposed to be large crystal and "exceeding six 9's" pure and is available at Michael Percy for USD $6-8/50 feet, i.e., it's fairly cheap.  Now the insulation on magnet wire sure ain't Teflon, but it's very thin.  The question:  How far outside the wire does the field extend (I know, infinity)?  So, then, at what distance outside the wire has the field decayed to 1/e of the value at the surface?  

Or, another way to state the question:  does the field around a wire decay over such a short distance that the decay occurs largely within the magnet wire insulation or does most of the field outside the wire "see air"?  Which insulation is better in theory:  thick Teflon or thin enamel?

Practically speaking, my chassis wiring and interconnect lengths are all quite short, and I have not heard differences between these wires.  While some might conclude that "there isn't any difference then" I believe that small things add up and that you sometimes can hear the cumulative effect of multiple small suboptimal contributors.  If I can decide "good or bad" by listening, that's the best way to go, if not, I will use reason and theory to decide.

Many thanks for your contributions on this forum.

Peter

[mb]

Thanks everyone for your replies so far . I'm quite familiar with the technical / pseudo technical aspects of the cables, and there have been proponents of the different dielectrics, conductors, etc. What I'd like to see are comments related to the sound qualities. silver/cu v. pure silver v. pure cu; large gauge v. small; single-strand v. multi; teflon v. PE v. ??. It's a huge question, which is why I'm only asking this with regards to AKSA hookup wire .

[Tinker]

Tinker,
I like to use Vampire magnet wire, guages between 20-26.5 for hookup and interconnects.  This wire is supposed to be large crystal and "exceeding six 9's" pure and is available at Michael Percy for USD $6-8/50 feet, i.e., it's fairly cheap.  Now the insulation on magnet wire sure ain't Teflon, but it's very thin.  The question:  How far outside the wire does the field extend (I know, infinity)?  So, then, at what distance outside the wire has the field decayed to 1/e of the value at the surface?  
 ...

This wire sounds pretty good, and it's so cheap! I might have to try some.

The field decays as an inverse square, but you need to know the charge involved, so the current comes into play.

I couldn't begin to quantify what the difference might be between "thick" teflon and "thin" enamal, but I imagine it would be fairly hard to hear, unless the enamel has some bizarre capacitive properties. Just looking at a databook here the dielectric constant of good netwowrk cable is around 1.6-1.8, FR4 PCB is 3-4.5 depending on what else it is surrouded by. PVC is somewhere in between although certain mixtures are worse.

T.

[Tinker]

Thanks everyone for your replies so far . I'm quite familiar with the technical / pseudo technical aspects of the cables, and there have been proponents of the different dielectrics, conductors, etc. What I'd like to see are comments related to the sound qualities. silver/cu v. pure silver v. pure cu; large gauge v. small; single-strand v. multi; teflon v. PE v. ??. It's a huge question, which is why I'm only asking this with regards to AKSA hookup wire .

OK. This is just my subjective impression of stuff I have actually tried in a 55:

Multi-strand cable (no brand names for legal reasons) - uniformly uninteresting, soggy bass if I were to use a descriptor.
28ga fine silver - pretty clean. A touch sparkly. Much better bass than above.
30ga Kynar wrapping wire - less air, but faster and not as edgy as the silver
Teflon cat 5e - can't tell it from the WWW, but much easier to work with.

Impression only. Please feel free to disagree. Or better yet try them yourself!

T.

[stvnharr]

Anyone who can hear differences in hookup wire, copper, silver, enamelled, tefloned, whatever - has hearing powers that are exceedingly great.
I think it's more important to keep lengths short, even, and to make good connections.
I currently use the Chimera wire because I have some.   I formerly used  Cardas and a few others, even Cat 5e.
There is a tremendous amount of words devoted to this subject in forums, websites, and the like.  Hard to filter the wheat from the chaff too.   But with lengths of only a few inches, I don't think it all matters too much.

[SamL]

Anyone who can hear differences in hookup wire, copper, silver, enamelled, tefloned, whatever - has hearing powers that are exceedingly great.

Well, this for sure will start a war. Anyway, just to say if there no improvement, Hugh will not bother to ship his kit with teflon Cat5 wire.

Sam

[Malcolm Fear]

I can hear a difference in interconnects and speaker leads.
I can hear a difference (for the better) using Eichmann's.
Braided CAT 5 is my choice of interconnect.
I don't know if I can hear short runs of hook up wire, but I sleep a little better having braided CAT 5 as my hook up wire inside the box.
If I preferred any other wire as an interconnect, I would use it as my hook up wire.

[andyr]

Well, I don't know about a war but I wouldn't B surprised if this thread gets as long as the 'Valhalla AKSA 55' one!!

Here's the gospel acording to St. Andrew ... not that I, personally, make any claim to being an expert - I am simply standing on the shoulders of giants (... so this is what I have picked up over the years from the people who do know)   :
1.  Yes, keep lengths - of whatever - short.
2.  Yes, try to keep them even but this is not as important as #1 (do the physics!).
3.  Wire routing inside the case is important.
4.  Don't use plated wire.
5.  Use solid-core, not stranded.
6.  Thinner is better, for IC wire ... but it becomes increasingly difficult to work with, not to say fragile!
7.  Ag vs. Cu ... that's a personal preference!  Theory seems to imply Ag should be better but many people (Hugh included) say it introduces HF 'tizz'.  I've never tried it.
8.  Whatever you use, the purer the better - you can buy '6 9s' Cu - ie. 99.9999% - but I don't know how pure you can buy Ag.
9.  Thinner is also better for insulation - hence enameled magnet/transformer wire will probably sound better than the same wire, teflon coated, bcoz the dielectric is so much thinner.  It's a pain to work with, though.
For good sound, Teflon is better than Kynar which is better than PVC.  Air dielectric is the absolute best but how do you stop the Cu/Ag from tarnishing?  (Use gold wiring instead?)
10.  Here's a controversial one ... I've read that making the 'earth/return' wire a thicker guage than the 'signal' wire has a beneficial effect    !

The best way of testing different wires is to make up some extremely long interconnects - say 10m!  Any small differences will sure show up .

Regards,

Andy