[8thnerve]

Has anyone had the opportunity to compare these players?  I'm only interested in the audio performance of these units, and their strengths as a redbook transport as well.

[John Casler]

Just picked up a 2200 for my system and although it is not "burned in" the difference (read improvement) in the sonics so far is really nice.  

It makes me wish I had more listening time to go through some of my old CDs they sound so good.

The improved resolving power over my other CD players (Rotel, Luxman, Harman Kardon) is quite distinct and noticable.

While it is still a bit agressive, I have to admit to having the volume turned up much more now than in the past without the former "edginess".

It is certainly a miner, when it comes to detail.  It reaches down and pulls up resolution and instrumental attack and timber I had not heard before.

If the 2900 does a better job than this I tip my hat to those who own them.  

As far as the Pioneer, I have not heard it, but depending on your system and its ability to sonically decipher detail, this player "out of the box" is a winner.

I too was not interested particularly in video perfromance, but for the record, I watched a film last night, and I won't say it made my older Rear Projection SD TV turn into HDTV, but I will say that the video "was" much improved.

And aside from just viewing the film and seeing deeper blacks, crisper detail, and beautiful color without any bleeding, I had one other clear cut sign.....

The credits.  Yep when the credits roll, They were pristine, compared to the older player (a top of the line Cinema Series Toshiba 9200).

Oh Yeah it was impressive.

And one other thing.  The HT sound through a Harman Kardon AVR7200 was excellent.  I didn't listen critically, but just to enjoy the movie, but it sounded as good or better than ever.  And I did notice very clear dialogue (but that could have been a sound engineers good work)

Sorry I can't be of more help regarding the Pioneer.

[Rob Babcock]

I can offer maybe a little insight, but not a direct comparison.  I have a DV-45A, which is reported to sound very similar to the DV-47i, and I recently bought the Denon DVD-2200.  The Denon crushes the Pioneer, which I was pretty happy with.  Okay, "crushes" may overstate it, but definately betters it by a significant margin.  And the inclusion of digital bass management is a major improvement.

I really wish I knew how much diff there was between the 2200 and the 2900.  I've only had it a few weeks; I could take it back and apply it towards the 2900 if I wanted to.  But my concern is that, features wise, my ultimate universal machine is a generation away yet.  The 5900 has every feature I want, but $2k it too steep for me.  Yet I believe that the next models will incorporate most of its features for a lot less money (eg, DVI ouput & FireWire output).  So I hate to pony up the extra $400 when I'll likely be buying a new machine in a couple years.

Still, I can't complain about the sound I'm getting, and I can't believe the 2900 could best it by much.  I haven't tried a redbook CD in it yet, but I am curious how well it plays them.

BTW, I have watched a few movies on my new Denon, but I haven't decided if its picture is better than my Pioneer.  The flicks I've watched were mostly older movies that weren't state of the art at all.  I'll have to throw in my SB version of Resident Evil (about the best image of any disc I have) and see how it looks.  The memory buffer really does make layer changes seamless, so far.

[John Casler]

If it works out Mad Dog, Shokinin, and myself will "eventually"  get together and do a CD/DVD shootout of sorts, with my Denon DVD2200, Shokinin's Sony SACD (I forget the model ,,--Sony SCD-XA777ES
maybe) and Mad Dog's new Pioneer DV-AX10.

While the Denon is not in that league price wise, it might be semi-competitive due to just being newer.  Not looking for it to beat these two, but if it even approaches the perfromance of either it will be a "hum dinger".

We also plan to somehow evaluate the BPT BP1 I have with Shokinin's Shunyata, Hydra and maybe Mad Dog will have a new Power Conditioner which I'm not sure I can disclose (maybe he will) that he might be testing.

But in any event, the 2200 will be in "Tall Company" and hopefully will be able to give a reasonably good showing.

[Rob Babcock]

I'll be keeping an eye on that one, John C.  Who knows, I may have flip flopped and decided to trade up the the 2900 by then, anyway!

[Rob Babcock]

I suppose I'll get a lot of grief for even suggesting it, but I'd like a universal carousel changer.  What can I say, I'm too lazy to get up and change my hi rez discs!

[bubba966]

If it works out Mad Dog, Shokinin, and myself will "eventually"  get together and do a CD/DVD shootout of sorts, with my Denon DVD2200, Shokinin's Sony SACD (I forget the model ,,--Sony SCD-XA777ES
maybe) and Mad Dog's new Pioneer DV-AX10.

Well, get on with it will 'ya!

I'd love to hear how the AX10 stands up to the XA777ES on CD.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. My AX10 is the damn best Redbook transport I've had the pleasure of using. It's amazing how much better the digital out is over the different Pioneers (DV models 09, 47Ai, 38A, 37, 333, 440, DVL models 700, 909, 919, 90) and different Sony's (9000ES, 999ES, and a few other that escape memory at the moment) I've had the pleasure of owning or borrowing for a while.

Would also be interesting to see a video comparo between the Pioneer & Denon. Denon's not had the best track record where video performance is concerned.

[Mad DOg]

If it works out Mad Dog, Shokinin, and myself will "eventually"  get together and do a CD/DVD shootout...

I'm up for it...Let's check w/ Shokunin...I don't see any problems as long as we can find a day that we're all free for the afternoon...

[Mad DOg]

...I've said it before, and I'll say it again. My AX10 is the damn best Redbook transport I've had the pleasure of using...

The DV-AX10 is a VERY, VERY fine redbook transport...i compared the DV-AX10 to the Sony DVP-S7000 (highly regarded as a transport) running thru my P-Tech P-3/A modwright level 1 DAC and the DV-AX10 easily surpassed the Sony in every aspect of sound quality. no contest...however there are 2 CD transports I've heard that even the DV-AX10 can't compete w/ on redbook playback...$20K MSRP Forsell and $1,695 MSRP Audio Alchemy DDS-Pro. i've a/b'd both of these against the DV-AX10 and it's no comparison...as good as the Pioneer is and it is REALLY good, there are still better...

[8thnerve]

It seems that no one has direct experience between these two.  I have to decide if the 2900 is worth $270 more.

[wshuff]

I own the DV-45A and the Denon 2900.  I prefer the Denon.  There has been much debate about whether either of these players actually supports bass management.  There was a long thread over on HTF about the Pioneer.  With the Denon, it seems that the complaints were more directed towards the calibration test tones, which were fine but for the sub tone, which was much lower, at least on the Denon 2900.  The point being, I may prefer the Denon because it is actually providing a useable bass management not found in the Pioneer.  Since I use smaller speakers and subs, that is important.  I would say that the Denon simply sounds fuller and more real than the Pioneer ever did.  Which is not to say that I was disappointed with the Pioneer.  I got it because it was the cheapest universal available at the time and I wanted to experience DVD-A and SACD.  It is just that once the Denon went into the system, I enjoyed its sound better and felt that it was giving me more.

As for the comment about the video quality, I don't think that there is any comparison.  I had always used Pioneer DVD players, and for about two years used the DV-37.  Liked it, it got great reviews in most of the magazines.  But the Secrets shootout pointed out some shortcomings.  When I got a Panasonic RP82 last February I finally saw the deficiencies in the Pioneer's deinterlacing.  I had simply accepted the quirks I saw and passed them off as an artifact of digital video.  But they were not there with the RP82.  While the CUE is the biggest problem usually mentioned, I think that the combing and those type artifacts were what I noticed most.  The Pannie, and the Denon 2900, both offer greatly increased deinterlacing performance, which leads to a more solid image without the occasional blurs caused by the combing and other problems.  I would take the Denon over the Pioneer simply for the video performance.  The fact that I like the audio better is just icing on the cake.

[Rob Babcock]

I have to clarify my post on the video performance:  the projector in my system has a good deinterlacer, and it isn't defeatable, so I am comparing only the interlaced video output of the Denon & Pioneers.  I haven't used either in progressive mode.

So far I haven't watched enough good material to deteremine which player is better, aside from the fact that layer changes so far have been undetectable with the Denon.

There are some "quirks" to the Bass Management of the Denon, but fundamentally it works perfectly, although it isn't easy to set it up properly.  At least that's my take on it so far.

[wshuff]

I would agree with what Rob says about bass management on the 2900, and probably in general.  With both the DV-45A and the 2900 I set up the bass management the way that it looked like you're supposed to do if you have small speakers and subs, but after that...?

With the Pioneer, others evidently found out that the player does no bass management at all, but I don't know exactly what they found.  I did finally read that the Yamaha DSP-A1 that I have in my second system performs analog bass management, so that seemed to take care of that problem.  My MC-8 allowed me to raise the sub level of the 2900 at the processor's analog pass through input, so that seemed to fix that problem.  But I don't know if there is any fix for the way some of the DVD-A/SACDs are mixed.  I have one that is apparently mixed as 6 full-range channels, so I had voices coming from my subs.  Very hollow sounding voices that scared me.  Weird.

As for the video quality, I probably would say I've preferred the Denon, but I've never watched either the Pioneer or Denon in interlaced, so my preferences necessarily include the deinterlacing.  If you aren't going to be using the internal deinterlacing, the differences are probably going to be less noticeable, like Rob found.