[Telstar]

In the past months I have done several auditions of power amplifiers. I have came up to a shortlist of 4 and now I would like to reduce this further to make the final audition in my system easier.

I do NOT want that you suggest me other amplifiers, because i may have either already discarded them, or have some defect (for me) or are way out of reach (es. DartZeel, recent ASR Emitter), or too hard to find (please remember that I am in Europe).

On the nay list:
Spectral (harsh highs)
Electrocmpaniet (not my cup of cake)
Unico (was beaten by my old classé that i'm going to replace)
Pass (x150.5 - no bass control)
Burmester (too cold and the higher models are out of my pricerange)
Lavardin (no real defect but it didnt make me in love)
ATC (cannot audition if not going to switzerland, supposedly not good control, so skipping it)
Any valves the power amp: CAT may do it but for 10k

The four "should be right" are (in alphabetical order):
- Belles 150A Reference
- Norma 8.7 HV (italian brand, i dont think is sold abroad)
- Symphonic Line RG 1 mk3 (special edition, with bigger transformer)
- YBA 2

The maybe i should consider too:
- Pass X250.5
- McCormack DNA-225 with or without mods (cannot audition it, no distribution)
- Karan Acoustics 250 (dont remember the model well, there was a review of an older model on tnt-audio)
- A home made 100w amplifier from a friend of a friend, which in his opinion destroyed his expensive VTL combo

My setup is the following:

Source: Modified Teac VRDS 10se - Behringer DEQ2496 for room correction - Muse Model Two hdcd dac
Preamp: Sonic Frontiers SFL-1 (to be probably upgraded at a later time with Line 3 or deHavilland ultraverve - i need a remote!)
Loudspeakers: Linn av5140 (to keep until i move house and find better, really better)
Cables: Siltech G5 (interconnects), Kubala-Sosna Fascination (speakers), LessLoss (AC)

Any useful comment is welcome.

[Imperial]

I think you will find the Symphonic Line amp to be the better one.
As far as I know, that is the one with the most power here, of those 4.
You got the behringer so you then can taylor that sound pretty much any way you wan't it.

The problem as I see it is that you are holding on to that older SF linestage.
It has solidstate rectification,and has been accused of being a bit cool sounding.
AS long as it will actually drive the 10k input characteristics of the RG amp, it should however do a good enough job.
But, Lately that Dehaviland has garnered quite the following, I would Indeed urge you to look at that one for preamp duties.

The Linn speakers do like quite a lot of power, I'm guessing that you don't use the "aktiv" boards or anything, any amp must sort
of have at least a good dose of power on tap.

Some speakers do like power, but can also sound quite nice with a moderate amount of the juice.
I suppose that is up to you to decide when you demo the amps.

You are quite fortunate to be able to test this many amps, before making a choice, this certainly isn't always the case
for many 'philes!!

Imperial

[Freo-1]

In the past months I have done several auditions of power amplifiers. I have came up to a shortlist of 4 and now I would like to reduce this further to make the final audition in my system easier.

I do NOT want that you suggest me other amplifiers, because i may have either already discarded them, or have some defect (for me) or are way out of reach (es. DartZeel, recent ASR Emitter), or too hard to find (please remember that I am in Europe).

On the nay list:
Spectral (harsh highs)
Electrocmpaniet (not my cup of cake)
Unico
Pass (x150.5 - no bass control)
Burmester (too cold and the higher models are out of my pricerange)
Lavardin (no real defect but it didnt make me in love)
ATC (cannot audition if not going to switzerland, supposedly not good control, so skipping it)
Any valves the power amp: CAT may do it but for 10k

The four "should be right" are (in alphabetical order):
- Belles 150A Reference
- Norma 8.7 HV (italian brand, i dont think is sold abroad)
- Symphonic Line RG 1 mk3 (special edition, with bigger transformer)
- YBA 2

The maybe i should consider too:
- Pass X250.5
- McCormack DNA-225 with or without mods (cannot audition it, no distribution)
- Karan Acoustics 250 (dont remember the model well, there was a review of an older model on tnt-audio)
- A home made 100w amplifier from a friend of a friend, which in his opinion destroyed his expensive VTL combo

The preamp that will match it is an old Sonic Frontiers, which i may upgrade at a later time with the Line 3. The rest of the setup is the following:

Source: Modified Teac VRDS 10se - Behringer DEQ2496 for room correction - Muse Model Two hdcd dac
Preamp: Sonic Frontiers SFL-1 (to be probably upgraded at a later time with Line 3 or deHavilland ultraverve - i need a remote)
Loudspeakers: Linn av5140 (to keep until i move house and find better, really better)
Cables: Siltech G5 (interconnects), Kubala-Sosna Fascination (speakers), LessLoss (AC)

Any useful comment is welcome.

Is your friend's home brew solid state or tube based? (I assume it's tube, as it's being compared to VTL).

The reason I ask is that I bought a restored HK Citation II, and after some time I started having trouble with the power supply cap. I took it to my buddy to have him look it over, and he told me that he could really make the amp an order of magnitude better by changing out the front end to 5687 triodes. I did that, and the transformation in the amp is amazing.

With a DIY amp, as long as the parts are high quality, and the design is tried and true, the results are generally much better than commercial equipment (for a given price point). Never forget that manufactures make items to a price point, and then factor in profit.  With the dollar in free fall, new equipment prices are going up, up, up.   

My buddy has repaired a LOT of high end equipment over the years, and he will tell you that most of the so called high end equipment is over engineered and/or under performing, often using cheap parts.

A home brew can use such tried and true techniques such as higher quality parts, point to point wiring, and so on to achieve quality sound.

I vote for at least auditioning the DYI amp, and listen for yourself.

[Telstar]

I think you will find the Symphonic Line amp to be the better one.
As far as I know, that is the one with the most power here, of those 4.

Correct. But that's the one I cannot audition before buying, and no money-back guarantee. But it is also the one that seems most interesting.

You got the behringer so you then can taylor that sound pretty much any way you wan't it.

The more i adjust the more power i would need. But i dont have much to boost the bass, so i would think in 25% the amount of greater power needed.

The problem as I see is that you are holding on to that older SF linestage.
It has solidstate rectification,and has been accused of being a bit cool sounding.
AS long as it will actually drive the 10k input characteristics of the RG amp, it should however do a good enough job.
But, Lately that Dehaviland has garnered quite the following, I would Indeed urge you to look at that one for preamp duties.

I could sell the SF and get something else. But no cheap preamp meets my needs. With mullard tube the SF is still good. I eventually plan to have it checkud and some update done, but i'm not sure is a bottleneck.

There's no deHavilland euro distributor that I know. I plan to write to Kara and see what she could do.
But I do need to put a few months inbetween upgrades of 2-3k range.

I didnt mention that I'm currently driving my Linn with the 105wpc Classé cap-100 integrated and it doesnt sound bad at all (i listened to loads of integrateds when i chose it some time ago).
It lacks some air, control and details separation and i would like less grain too. it is only 150W at 4 ohm and in my opinion cannot push the midrange well, nor tame the woofer.
Anything in my short list will be an improvement to it.

While the YBA has about only 100w (measured) it has good control. Watts are not the only mean to measure how well an amplifier will handle some rather difficult load.
Likewise, being the woofer easier to drive than the midrange, the bass tends to bulge, the behringer helped, but it's the power amp duty to control it. This is where the Belles would excel, with its dampening factor curve centered in the <400hz range.

The Linn speakers do like quite a lot of power, I'm guessing that you don't use the "aktiv" boards or anything, any amp must sort
of have at least a good dose of power on tap.

Long story, in short: linn amplification sucks, the aktiv tunebox push the bass even more and is hard to find and expensive to bi/triamp. They just need a generous amount of power (at my listening levels i can assume 200W*+ at 4 ohms, the yba-2 measured 180 iirc)

I have also been suggested by various people to replace the speakers. I have a forced room positioning and i could go only with slim towers possibly without bass reflex. Nothing good under 5-10k (euros) and even in that pricerange, I havent heard yet something that clearly sounds better than my linns, even with all their defects.

You are quite fortunate to be able to test this many amps, before making a choice, this certainly isn't always the case
for many 'philes!!

It takes a lot of time and effort to manage this. i did buy some stuff without listening. But not amplification, it is too critical for my system.
I am fortunate enough to live in the biggest town of northern italy and there are quite many distributors, retailers and audiophiles where to listen gear. But nothing compares to listen in your own system and room.

I auditionned the Norma without the DAC and the Behringer in my system, it was an improvement (especially voices, among the best, without considering price) but not big. Otherwise i would have probably decided to go with it.
The guy will let me borrow the unit again for further evaluation, and this time i want to have at least another amp to A/B.

[Telstar]

Is your friend's home brew solid state or tube based? (I assume it's tube, as it's being compared to VTL).

No! its solid state (i think i said somewhere in the post that i'm looking at only SS power amps).
It is actually an integrated, but with pre input.
My friend doesnt have a great audio experience. He may have preferred the diy amp because of better control of his quad speakers, or other reasons that are not just sheer superiority. But it sounded better than his 15k VTL pair in his setup.
Anyway it is in my price range and its worth a listen.

A home brew can use such tried and true techniques such as higher quality parts, point to point wiring, and so on to achieve quality sound.

He said that this guy made a supersize cirtuit to test various parts with his ears. He is retired and has plenty of time to dedicate to this hobby. He started with tubes but went to SS to get something that could drive any speakers.

I vote for at least auditioning the DYI amp, and listen for yourself.

That for sure. My friend (not close though) should let me try it, at least for one evening.
I'm trying to keep the Symphonic Line and YBA on hold, but only time and luck will tell.

[fly_fish_nz]

Telstar,

I'm not sure whether this will be useful since it is a different YBA amp, but thought I would mentionI recently compared a Belles Reference 150A/Placette Passive Linestage combination to a YBA Integre DT.   The YBA was a very fine amp, but in my system with Merlin VSM-MM's, I prefered the Belles/Placette combo, slightly more air, spaciousness, dynamics, and authority on bass to my ear.  I was though quite surprised at how well the YBA stood up considering its price.

I have heard that the Passion series is a step up from the DT, and probably where I will be looking next time I try YBA.  If you are going to consider another pre, perhaps one of the Passion series integrateds would be worth a look. 

[Telstar]

Telstar,

I'm not sure whether this will be useful since it is a different YBA amp, but thought I would mentionI recently compared a Belles Reference 150A/Placette Passive Linestage combination to a YBA Integre DT.   The YBA was a very fine amp, but in my system with Merlin VSM-MM's, I prefered the Belles/Placette combo, slightly more air, spaciousness, dynamics, and authority on bass to my ear.  I was though quite surprised at how well the YBA stood up considering its price.

Yes, it is useful thanks.

I have heard that the Passion series is a step up from the DT, and probably where I will be looking next time I try YBA.  If you are going to consider another pre, perhaps one of the Passion series integrateds would be worth a look. 

I'm sticking on valve preamp btw. And I'm not going back to an integrated, no matter how good. I need more flexibility.
I passed on an awesome Aloia SS pre with external inductive psu for about 1500 euros because i want to stick on valves.

[fly_fish_nz]

I've used the Belles paired with several tube amps to very good effect (Joule, Juicy Music, Decware).  Right now I'm hooked on the incredible transparency of the Placette, but I definetely enjoyed the Belles with a tubed pre.

[sbrtoy]

In my experience the Pass amps sound significantly better as you move up the line.  I was never really enamored with the 150, but the 250 is a really nice amp and the 350 takes it to even another level though it is a monster and puts off a ton of heat. 

Have you looked at any other class D amps besides the Spectron?  The various ICEpower amps are mostly nice sounding (some better than others) and would provide plenty of power and allow you budget left over for a nice preamp.  My personal opinion is you are trying to buy too much amp considering the rest of the system, as always synergy comes into play and upgrading one component won't usually transform the sound unless there is one particularly weak link. 

[James Romeyn]

Re. your Linn speakers: Minimum impedance & at what frequency(ies)?  List the frequency & magnitude of each impedance peak, but ONLY those ABOVE 100 Hz.

[Telstar]

Re. your Linn speakers: Minimum impedance & at what frequency(ies)?  List the frequency & magnitude of each impedance peak, but ONLY those ABOVE 100 Hz.

I dont have the email i have stored at hand (i'm on vacation), but IIRC, impedances are 5,8ohm for the woofer (35-400hz), 4,2ohm for the midrange (400hz-2k) and i dont remember the one of the tweeter, i think is inbetween.

[Telstar]

In my experience the Pass amps sound significantly better as you move up the line.  I was never really enamored with the 150, but the 250 is a really nice amp and the 350 takes it to even another level though it is a monster and puts off a ton of heat. 

I could audition the x250.5 (the 350 is completely out of budget, even used), but price and bulk size are sensibly more than the other amps i have shortlisted.

Have you looked at any other class D amps besides the Spectron?  The various ICEpower amps are mostly nice sounding (some better than others) and would provide plenty of power and allow you budget left over for a nice preamp. 

Yes, I have. Tried the icepower used on the bel canto s300i, it didnt have enough power and had very muddy bass. Didnt shine at all compared to the old Classé. Tried also the Nuforce (both ia7 and ref9 v2), they had control and bigger soundscene, but I didnt like the voices and the fake colored timbre annoyed me.
I didnt try tripath-based amps, because i couldnt audition red wine audio.
Anyway, I think class D amplifiers dont have a good synergy in my setup. I'm thinking that the Spectron could make me change my mind, but i'm still a bit skeptical and so i' sticking with ole good A/B.

My personal opinion is you are trying to buy too much amp considering the rest of the system, as always synergy comes into play and upgrading one component won't usually transform the sound unless there is one particularly weak link. 

When I tried the Norma in my system using the lesser integrated dac of my teac, and without the behringer deq, it did attain a clear improvement in sound. This means to me that the amplification is currently the weak link of my setup. I'm going to re-audition it, and this time A/B with a second amp of the list.

A similar but lesser improvement i perceived putting a anagram's sonic2-based diy dac in compariso with my Muse. The DAC will be the next upgrade if not the preamp. I'm holding on that because i want a SOTA DAC that will accept also high-res signals from my htpc (used now only for movies).

[sbrtoy]

Strange you would feel the ICEpower had muddy bass, most people would say the bass extension and control of these amps is their strong suit.  From your response it seems like the Norma is the amp you like, so why not go for it?  I don't think anyone else is going to come up with too many suggestions that haven't already been mentioned...

[lazydays]

I think you will find the Symphonic Line amp to be the better one.
As far as I know, that is the one with the most power here, of those 4.

Correct. But that's the one I cannot audition before buying, and no money-back guarantee. But it is also the one that seems most interesting.

    * if you like the Symphonic line amps, then you need to look at the top of the line Odysseys. The Mono SE's in the "glass cieling mode" are virtually the samething as the $7K Symphonic Line amps.

You got the behringer so you then can taylor that sound pretty much any way you wan't it.

The more i adjust the more power i would need. But i dont have much to boost the bass, so i would think in 25% the amount of greater power needed.

The problem as I see is that you are holding on to that older SF linestage.
It has solidstate rectification,and has been accused of being a bit cool sounding.
AS long as it will actually drive the 10k input characteristics of the RG amp, it should however do a good enough job.
But, Lately that Dehaviland has garnered quite the following, I would Indeed urge you to look at that one for preamp duties.

I could sell the SF and get something else. But no cheap preamp meets my needs. With mullard tube the SF is still good. I eventually plan to have it checkud and some update done, but i'm not sure is a bottleneck.

     * I'd keep the Sonic Frontiers preamp for awhile longer as you'll probably find it to be better than you think. These were very high rated preamps in their day.

There's no deHavilland euro distributor that I know. I plan to write to Kara and see what she could do.
But I do need to put a few months inbetween upgrades of 2-3k range.

I didnt mention that I'm currently driving my Linn with the 105wpc Classé cap-100 integrated and it doesnt sound bad at all (i listened to loads of integrateds when i chose it some time ago).
It lacks some air, control and details separation and i would like less grain too. it is only 150W at 4 ohm and in my opinion cannot push the midrange well, nor tame the woofer.
Anything in my short list will be an improvement to it.

While the YBA has about only 100w (measured) it has good control. Watts are not the only mean to measure how well an amplifier will handle some rather difficult load.
Likewise, being the woofer easier to drive than the midrange, the bass tends to bulge, the behringer helped, but it's the power amp duty to control it. This is where the Belles would excel, with its dampening factor curve centered in the <400hz range.

The Linn speakers do like quite a lot of power, I'm guessing that you don't use the "aktiv" boards or anything, any amp must sort
of have at least a good dose of power on tap.

Long story, in short: linn amplification sucks, the aktiv tunebox push the bass even more and is hard to find and expensive to bi/triamp. They just need a generous amount of power (at my listening levels i can assume 200W*+ at 4 ohms, the yba-2 measured 180 iirc)

I have also been suggested by various people to replace the speakers. I have a forced room positioning and i could go only with slim towers possibly without bass reflex. Nothing good under 5-10k (euros) and even in that pricerange, I havent heard yet something that clearly sounds better than my linns, even with all their defects.

You are quite fortunate to be able to test this many amps, before making a choice, this certainly isn't always the case
for many 'philes!!

It takes a lot of time and effort to manage this. i did buy some stuff without listening. But not amplification, it is too critical for my system.
I am fortunate enough to live in the biggest town of northern italy and there are quite many distributors, retailers and audiophiles where to listen gear. But nothing compares to listen in your own system and room.

I auditionned the Norma without the DAC and the Behringer in my system, it was an improvement (especially voices, among the best, without considering price) but not big. Otherwise i would have probably decided to go with it.
The guy will let me borrow the unit again for further evaluation, and this time i want to have at least another amp to A/B.

[Telstar]

Strange you would feel the ICEpower had muddy bass, most people would say the bass extension and control of these amps is their strong suit.  From your response it seems like the Norma is the amp you like, so why not go for it?  I don't think anyone else is going to come up with too many suggestions that haven't already been mentioned...

I didnt feel it had complete control over my speakers. 100W (not sure how much on 4ohm) and about 120 damping factor are probably not enough. Otherwise I would have kept it and looked no further.

But I will have it for another trial now that my system has room correction and a better DAC. I'm looking for the second amp to compare to it. It seems the YBA is to be excluded due to pretty low power. So it is between the Symphonic Line and the Belles. The first seems to posses a beautiful midrange, while the second should be second to none in control.

A special thank to the guy who compared it to the integré dt.

I didnt mention that I seem to like german ampifiers, they tend to have no problems in driving diffisult speakers. The best I have heard was the ASR Emitter, but I dont have the space nor the money to get one. The smallest Burmester was a bit too cold but drove well a 4ohm Apertura speakers.

[Telstar]

    * if you like the Symphonic line amps, then you need to look at the top of the line Odysseys. The Mono SE's in the "glass cieling mode" are virtually the samething as the $7K Symphonic Line amps.

I dont know! Never heard one personally. Not all SL lines are the same as Odysseys. I invited Klaus to check this thread...
Anyway, i contacted the spanish distributor and they never replied to me.

[lazydays]

    * if you like the Symphonic line amps, then you need to look at the top of the line Odysseys. The Mono SE's in the "glass cieling mode" are virtually the samething as the $7K Symphonic Line amps.

I dont know! Never heard one personally. Not all SL lines are the same as Odysseys. I invited Klaus to check this thread...
Anyway, i contacted the spanish distributor and they never replied to me.

I have a pair of the Mono SE's in the "glass ceiling" mode. Out of the box I felt they were better than the regualar Mono SE's. And when your dealing with Klaus you are always ahead of the game.
     A standard pair of Mono SE's are pretty much the same as the $7K Symphonic Line amps, but the glass ceiling amps are better. That plus Klaus' unmatched warranty.
gary

[James Romeyn]

Notes re. manufacturer rated power specs, all WPC/RMS into 8-Ohms, both channels driven:

Listed in ASCENDING order of subjective (apparent) output capability.  The amp was the only item substituted in each audition, except #1 required SE interconnect & the other two employed balanced (all same wire type).  Speaker is rated 89 dB, 5.3-Ohm minimum, 8-Ohm average, one 20-Ohm peak above 100 Hz:

1. 200W MOSFET class-AB, lowest apparent subjective power
2. 50W MOSFET class-A, dual NPN outputs, apparent subjective power between #1 & #3 
3. 30W (40W into higher impedance loads) class-A, triode, push-pull, OTL, lowest mass due to no output transformers, greatest apparent subjective power

All three have similar inflation-adjusted MSRP, $3k-$4k USD.  Note that even the amp w/ the least apparent power had a very good amount of headroom; there was just a greater sense of ease, punch, size, dynamic range & more headroom w/ each succesive amp.       

You may notice the inverse relationship between manufacturer rated power spec & subjective output; the amp w/ the lowest rated power seemed to have greater output.  One might conclude the manufacturer spec can be misleading at best.       

[Imperial]

I see, The picture seems to clear up a bit, it is most likely that it is in the midbass that
your speakers are putting the most toll on your amps.

I know, budgets are always there, and the midbass and the tweeter sweet is usually what goes first when
a amp is under strain... Then the soudstage depth goes out the window and tutti frutti and all that dudu!
I was under the impression that this could be the case, how to get an amp that has a massive yet nimble
powersupply and that don't get coarse under a bit of strain, and that don't kneel with the midbass doing all
this!!

There is an amp from my country that would fit your bill to a "T" eh, be super...
It's way over the budget I guess, but I might as well tell you about it.
Hegel H4SE, it's a absolute monster amplifier, earlier versions like the Hegel H4 mk II rank at the very top in Japan I
think..
The thing about this amp is that it will never sound like it's breaking a sweat, right up to where you trip the fuse in it.
So, now you know it exists.. it's like 10 - 12K$ I think at least that much.


On a sidenote..Telstar, how about getting a different pair of speakers? Have you considered this as an option?

Anyway... since you are from Italy.. La linea.. or Symphonic Line..
I don't know.. Really.
You sure are asking quite a lot from your amp with these speakers!! 
When you do get it to work, it should prove the amps worth and then some!!

Imperial

[Telstar]

I have a pair of the Mono SE's in the "glass ceiling" mode. Out of the box I felt they were better than the regualar Mono SE's. And when your dealing with Klaus you are always ahead of the game.
     A standard pair of Mono SE's are pretty much the same as the $7K Symphonic Line amps, but the glass ceiling amps are better. That plus Klaus' unmatched warranty.
gary

Sorry dude, but I have to deal with the pesky european distributors, not with Klaus that seems to have excellent customer service.