old vs. new

jmpiwonka · « **on:** 20 Mar 2008, 06:51 pm »

what is everyones thoughts on turntables, i've been trying to get to know what to look for. i'll probably start going to garage sales every once in a while with the idea of finding a nice old tt for cheap.

some options we have...spring for a newer table like a rega p something/nad c555/goldfinger/pro-ject or whatever. i guess this would probably be the easiest option.
also a few technics 1200's for sale locally around 200-250 dollars.

there are the older tables though, and i'm wondering...do the newer tables sound any better than the good older ones?
and what are the nice older ones?
thorens?
empire?
ar?
what else?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Mar 2008, 07:34 pm »

You gotta' take the leap somewhere...there are so many opinions out there and there are 50 years of turntable brands and models to sort thru

The Technics 1200 is a great place to start at around $500.....a less expensive (and some feel better) alternative (I've not heard it) is the near-clone Audio Technica model for almost half-less...http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATPL120HIFI&Category_Code=TURN

If the AT is half as good as the reviews suggest, then it is likely the best new value turntable out there today. It's Direct Drive...often derided by audiophools as inferior, but that is subject to great debate here and elsewhere.

Regards, John

lcrim · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Mar 2008, 07:57 pm »

Restoring a good older TT like the Thorens 124, or the Garrard 301 or the Empire 598 can be a great deal of fun but if you are just getting into vinyl that may be a good deal more work than you bargained for.
My advice would be to check out the KAB web site. The Technics 12xx line is easy to learn on and inexpensive. Kevin is easy to work with and wouldn't know how to steer you wrong.

Wayner · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Mar 2008, 08:14 pm »

I think looking for a table older than 10 years old maybe troublesome for you if you are just getting into vinyl. You really need to have some experience under the belt to get some of the old boys going. The Empire 598 is a wonderful machine....when its set up right and parts aren't worn. Same goes for the AR, Thorens and others you mentioned. They can end up to be the project from hell. I like lcrims suggestion of going for a new one, like the Technics. It's minimal imvestment and with care and reading the instruction book, can have you listening to LPs in a couple of hours.

Wayner

SET Man · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Mar 2008, 08:16 pm »

Quote from: lcrim on 20 Mar 2008, 07:57 pm

...but if you are just getting into vinyl that may be a good deal more work than you bargained for.

Hey!

I agreed. If you are just starting out than I think you will be better off with more modern TT.

They are lots of used Pro-ject and Rega that come up often. I've never used Pro-ject but I do have Rega Planar 2... or should I say used to be Planar 2

Anyway, good thing about used Rega is that they come with very good arm like RB250 with Planar 2 or P2 or RB300 with Planar 3 or P3.

The only problem with lower end Rega is that they tend to run a bit fast

I did fixed mine with some some good electrical tape. And now it runs at 999hz instead of around 1010hz. Well, that is close enough for me!

Anyway, good luck and keep us posted.

Take care,
Buddy

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Mar 2008, 08:24 pm »

well i have that older NAD tt that i managed to get sounding ok. the motor intermittently gets kinda noisy* so i suspect it might not last that long. i'm going to play it until it dies or until i find a good deal on something.

so the older tables sound nice if they are in proper working order...

i was mainly wondering if the newer tables with glass platters and all that stuff really sound so much better...

twitch54 · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Mar 2008, 09:27 pm »

I too concur with what has been said before this post.

Depending on your budget and if you think about going with a new set-up what are your local options ?? any dealers that support and trully understand analog near you ?? if not the folks @ Acoustic Sound, Elusive Disc offer very good reliable set-ups.

If your mech. savy and have TT knowledge I concur with John, the 1200 does have plenty of possibilities and there is plenty of support on this site as you know. As far as the Rega players go, IMO, the P1 & 2 are not well made, while the arm my be fine I personally feel Rega quality does not start untill at least the P-3.

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Mar 2008, 08:15 pm »

i'm in austin texas. there are a few shops here including one high end shop, that carries rega tables. my buddy actually lives above his shop and goes down there all the time to listen to different setups on saturdays.
there is also a repair shop that does lots of tube amp repairs and such, they have a few turntables and know about them...i'm sure if i took an old one in there to get looked at they would go over the setup with me and show me the basics.

i'm wondering, would a rega p1, 2 or 3 sound better than something like this table?
i didn't bid on it but i was thinking about it. i just found someone close to me that has a few empire tables that should be in good working order priced 200-350, pretty sure it's a repair shop...basically, i'm still trying to decide old or new.

kinda off topic...because my denon receiver had that dirty channel i spent a little extra money i had and got an nad 1020b preamp and an adcom gfa-1a off of ebay...hooked it up last night...sounds much nicer, i'm really surprised how much nicer actually. i think the 7" drivers really like the extra power.

Arlequen · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Mar 2008, 10:13 pm »

Quote from: jmpiwonka on 26 Mar 2008, 08:15 pm

i'm wondering, would a rega p1, 2 or 3 sound better than something like this table?

Hi Jimpi,

Rega sounds faster and lighter than Thorens TD125 and further needs absolutely a wall bracket since it's very sensible to vibrations
Thorens sounds slow and heavy compared to the Rega but it's better if you like classical music and it doesn't require any wall bracket .. it's a suspended chassis and very insensible to vibrations

My cent!

Scottdazzle · « **Reply #9 on:** 27 Mar 2008, 01:11 am »

Arlequen,

I have a Thorens TD 125 and would like to understand your comment about it sounding slow and heavy. If it keeps steady speed, how can it sound slow? Maybe it's just semantics, but I get confused when terms like pace and slow are used. I agree that it may sound heavy, but I could attribute that quality to the synergy created by the combination of cartridge, arm, wiring, table, and preamp.

I can attest that my particular combination does sound deeper and fuller (heavier?) than any cd player/DAC I've heard, but that is a plus to my way of thinking. The combination I have is Denon DL-160, SME 3009II non-detached with metal bearing, Cardas tonearm wiring, TD125, and TAD 150 preamp.

I'd appreciate comments from anyone who can explain this slow/pace terminology.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #10 on:** 27 Mar 2008, 02:44 am »

Scott,

Keep in mind Arlequen's first language is Italian..so he may not be as eloquent in English as you or I in descriptions.

'Ponderous' is how I describe most suspended belt drive decks...no matter the arm or cartridge combo. Some call it 'lush'. We all hear things differently and are attuned to different aspects of the performance.

Some hate vinyl solely for the clicks, pops and warp induced wow....others can't take the utter inconvenience of the format. The little nuances we hear between decks ain't nuthin' - I'm just glad vinyl is still around. I'm pretty sure I woulda' checked out of Audio Circle and hung up my audiophile hat if I had only digital formats to use, frankly

They just don't pay homage to the music like great turntables can and do

Regards, John

Hank · « **Reply #11 on:** 27 Mar 2008, 12:17 pm »

jmpiwonka, this is Hank in Austin. I just sent you an e-mail. I bought a Rega Planar 3 with an RB300 arm off eBAy and want to sell it. I haven't used it because I lucked into a Wilson Benesch Circle with RB300 incognito rewire and an AT mc cartridge.

Arlequen · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 01:30 pm »

Quote from: Scotthobby on 27 Mar 2008, 01:11 am

I have a Thorens TD 125 and would like to understand your comment about it sounding slow and heavy.

All the suspended TT like Linn or Thorens are slow and heavy .. slow = not rithmic / heavy = non light (more medium bass frequencies)
Many audiophiles like these TTs expecially for Classical or Lyric music where the rithm isn't requested
All the audiphiles that like country/rock/jazz/blues should buy not suspended TTs that are faster rithmic and light in medium bass frequencies .. and the best TT for this music is the Technics SL1200 or many other Rega (but only on a wall bracket) and the magical Funk Firm Vector .. the best not suspended TT I have listened

Wayner · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 02:24 pm »

Suspended tables like the Acoustic Research AR-XA (which was one of the first) are designed so that the suspensions resonate frequency is out of the audible zone. This is one reason why people shouldn't screw with unless you know what your doing. To say that they are slow or bass heavy lumps all suspendeds into the same boat, which they are not. Some manufacturer did a splendid job with the suspensions "Q", others did not. Back to defending the AR-XA, while it is kind of a nightmare to work on (arm attachment, tonearm wire issues), it can deliver some of the most breathtaking vinyl, still to this day. It's pace is very rhythmic and steady (with a good motor) and will deliver plenty of well balanced sound fit for the classical buff, or heavy metal head.

Wayner

Scottdazzle · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 05:54 pm »

John and Arlequen,

Thank you for the explanations. I think I get it now and will have to audition some different tables.

Scott

doug s. · « **Reply #15 on:** 29 Mar 2008, 05:08 am »

if someone local can hook you up w/an empire, it will be hard to beat for $200-$350,imo. especially if you go for one of the older non-suspended empires - these are much easier to upgrade the tonearm - slap a rega rb250 on it, & you will have to spend a lot more to better the sound.

forget the rega decks - something lke the systemdek ll presently listed f/s here will be much better, but if it were me, i'd go for an empire. cool link for hot-rodding empires:
http://cognitivevent.com/av_empire.html

the lenco l75 also has a great reputation, after hot-rodding & a better arm, but may require more woodworking skills. the same guy who did the empires is also gettning into the lenco's now:
http://cognitivevent.com/av_lenco.html

doug s.

Quote from: jmpiwonka on 26 Mar 2008, 08:15 pm

i'm in austin texas. there are a few shops here including one high end shop, that carries rega tables. my buddy actually lives above his shop and goes down there all the time to listen to different setups on saturdays.
there is also a repair shop that does lots of tube amp repairs and such, they have a few turntables and know about them...i'm sure if i took an old one in there to get looked at they would go over the setup with me and show me the basics.

i'm wondering, would a rega p1, 2 or 3 sound better than something like this table?
i didn't bid on it but i was thinking about it. i just found someone close to me that has a few empire tables that should be in good working order priced 200-350, pretty sure it's a repair shop...basically, i'm still trying to decide old or new.

kinda off topic...because my denon receiver had that dirty channel i spent a little extra money i had and got an nad 1020b preamp and an adcom gfa-1a off of ebay...hooked it up last night...sounds much nicer, i'm really surprised how much nicer actually. i think the 7" drivers really like the extra power.

Rocket · « **Reply #16 on:** 29 Mar 2008, 10:43 am »

Hi,

An AC member was selling a Systemdek II turntable for $350us a day or so ago.

I've heard this particular turntable and it killed my rega 3 and acoustic research eb101 when I listened to it.

Regards

Rod

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #17 on:** 29 Mar 2008, 03:03 pm »

i just picked up a planar3 to test out from Hank.
should be fun to give this one a good listen for a while, about to see if the grado black i have will hum on this table...

if i didn't just pick up this table to test listen i'd just buy that SystemDek IIX...

doug s. · « **Reply #18 on:** 29 Mar 2008, 03:14 pm »

Quote from: jmpiwonka on 29 Mar 2008, 03:03 pm

i just picked up a planar3 to test out from Hank.
should be fun to give this one a good listen for a while, about to see if the grado black i have will hum on this table...

if i didn't just pick up this table to test listen i'd just buy that SystemDek IIX...

buy it anyway; you can always sell it for the same price. and, there's no better way to decide what you like best than by direct comparison. and, get one of those empires to compare, while you're at it.

doug s.

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #19 on:** 29 Mar 2008, 04:54 pm »

haha, i'm planning on finding an empire to play with.
i put an ortofon m20fl super on the rega that i had...not sure of the condition of the cartride but we'll see. it's setup according to the rega/baerwald arc...but i'm gonna need a scale to measure tracking weight.
i'm gonna have to run up the audio shop, but first my brother needs to come by to get me to measure and cut the fork on his brand new custom bicycle frame...so much to do today, i have parties to go to also starting at 4. i need get the scale today so i can listen all day tomorrow