[youngho]

I don't want to bash any products, but I have to admit that I burst out laughing while reading this review (http://www.stereotimes.com/acc031808.shtml), particularly the methodology used for the measurements.

1-2 dB change when using the RS SPL meter at a distance of 2-5 feet from each corner of the room? That's extraordinary! That change couldn't possibly be related to the variable distance from the corner, since 2-5 feet is such a tight range, particularly in the reviewer's 13' x 17' x 8' room. Furthermore, 1-2 dB is such an remarkable change that I can't imagine another acoustic product that could possibly have more of an effect, not "even the ones ten times their size and triple their cost."

Of course, we know that ears are always more sensitive than measurements, and the perceptible difference seemed to be even more striking than the incredible measured improvement. I only wish that the reviewer had let the panels burn in properly. In any case, I'm so impressed by the review that I may have to start buying some of the cables and accessories that the reviewer owns.

[Ethan Winer]

Heh, I actually tested four of those panels at the request of the company. Guess what I found? I have ETF before and after graphs and photos if anyone wants to see them.

--Ethan

"Everyone understands and accepts that the placebo effect is real, but for some reason audiophiles don't think it ever happens to them."

[barkerpj]

That is quite possibly one of the worst reviews i have ever read.

Nathan,

I'd love to see the before and after info - i doubt if there is any measurable difference. You can PM me.

Paul

[mfsoa]

Holy Crap - Imagine owning a pair of Von Schweikert VR5SE ($25K ?) and an Esoteric P70/D70 combo ($14K) and not knowing that your room acoustics just might be playing a small role in the sound that you are hearing?

I never even considered before; room acoustics. I thought to myself. “My room could be considered a potential cause of the unsatisfying sound I was experiencing? How can this be?! It’s just a room!”

And then to actually admit it in public, under the guise of an audio reviewer that we are supposed to take seriously!

Wow 

[Vinyl-Addict]

Heh, I actually tested four of those panels at the request of the company. Guess what I found? I have ETF before and after graphs and photos if anyone wants to see them.

--Ethan

"Everyone understands and accepts that the placebo effect is real, but for some reason audiophiles don't think it ever happens to them."

I'm guessing they did very little iff anything below 200hz. I also can't figure out if the reviewer actually tested other acoustic treatment in his home or just read about them on the web. It seems that his only experience is with the Cathedral panels.

I think there should be a requirement for all reviewers to post their roomsize as well as associated equip. and whether or not the room is treated.  

[youngho]

Vinyl, the reviewer does seem to have tried some other products. "The Cathedral Sound Room Dampening Panels provided more obvious improvements than any other acoustic treatment I have tried, even the ones ten times their size and triple their cost" and "I was introduced to a handful of well known and respected acoustic products. However, most were not to my liking. Some were too large, unattractive and very cumbersome. Despite the fact that they worked, they definitely did not own a high WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor). End of story. Other products required a general contractor to install, and many others just appeared to be gimmicks that would not produce a positive affect on my room’s acoustics." I think that last clause is truly damning. Fortunately, the Cathedral panels were not just a gimmick and had a truly amazing (and measurably so!) effect on his room's acoustics.

Mfsoa, the reviewer is "a research engineer by trade," and we all know that a key tenet of engineering is that the one of the best ways to approach a problem is throw as much money as possible at it. It's only a shame that the Cathedral panels don't cost more. Think of how much effective they would be.

Paul, seriously, what are you going to trust more? Ethan Winer's measurements or Moreno Mitchell's ears? I mean, come on, Moreno Mitchell is a research engineer, and his audio setup costs a lot more than Ethan's does.

Ethan, if I recall correctly, the panels appear to have a HUGE effect if you just change the units on the Y axis of the original graphs like you can still see here: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/rives/messages/4173.html. Amazing! The waterfall plots are otherwise perfectly preserved, just altered in level! Unfortunately, the company and its main retailer no longer presents this "data" in their advertising, which is really too bad. I mean, they could say, "Have too much bass? Wish you had less but equally lumpy bass? We have the product for you!!! Just buy our product, install it, and turn down the volume a little. You'll notice the difference immediately!" I thought the graphs perfectly illustrated what customers can really expect in terms of reducing the effects of standing waves. There's some irony here about truth in advertising that I can't quite articulate. Oh well.

[satfrat]

I have a pair of Cathedral Sound Panels in the rear corners of my rear wall and I love them. My bass definitely got tighter and more defined with only these 2 Panels. I'd love to pick up another set sometime for the front walls. There's really nothing to these panels but they do work for me in my system. 

FWIW. 

Cheers,
Robin

[Rob Babcock]

I have a pair of Cathedral Sound Panels in the rear corners of my rear wall and I love them. My bass definitely got tighter and more defined with only these 2 Panels. I'd love to pick up another set sometime for the front walls. There's really nothing to these panels but they do work for me in my system. 

FWIW. 

Cheers,
Robin

Hmmm...I've never heard of them before, Robin.  I'll have to investigate them.

[Ethan Winer]

I'm guessing they did very little iff anything below 200hz.

Below are some photos, plus before / after graphs of four Cathedral Panels as well as three half-filled garbage cans we had laying around the shop. The use of garbage cans was not meant to be mean - we just didn't want to make this into a product comparison since the company asked us to test these for them.

I think there should be a requirement for all reviewers to post their roomsize as well as associated equip. and whether or not the room is treated.

I think a prerequisite for being an audio product reviewer is at least minimally understanding the science of audio.

--Ethan


Cathedral Panel test setup, as advised by the company:






Room with and without four Cathedral panels:




Room with and without three garbage cans - the biggest improvement is around 100 Hz:




Garbage cans setup:

[Big Red Machine]

This is destined for "Classic" status.  Thanks Ethan.

[bpape]

I was thinking the same thing.  There are SO many different things I was wanting to write but I'll leave it alone.

Bryan

[Bob in St. Louis]

I only wish that the reviewer had let the panels burn in properly.

[youngho]

Sorry, if you couldn't tell from the tone of my posts in this thread, this was meant as a joke.

[Bob in St. Louis]

I know Mr. Ho, I just thought it was funny. We've all seen sarcastic remarks about over the top obscene statements (like yours), but burn in for a treatment panel is a new one.
You get an A+ for that one. 

I especially like the reviewers comments about struggling with the sound of his system when an epiphany struck him one day about treating the room. Then later in the review he comments on all the other panels he's had. That one made my head lean over like a dog.....

Bob

[satfrat]

This is destined for "Classic" status.  Thanks Ethan.

Yeh, I thought the trashcan summed up his post just fine as are all the posts Ethen Winer does on his competitors products.. I'll trust my ears thank you.

As most of your posts go Ho,,,, they are truely a joke. ha-ha 

Cheers,
Robin

[bpape]

Robin. 

I'm a subjectivist too - to a point.  I will have to agree that those are going to do little to nothing below about 150Hz.  It's simple physics. Look at the thickness (they're not membranes either) and look at the amount of the absorbtion exposed through the hole pattern.  That's somewhat replicating a Helmholz resonator, but without the sealed air 'spring' behind it to provide the needed resistance for it to perform as one.  At that thickness, if it was sealed, it'd likely be tuned around 250Hz or higher and be effective over about 1 octave (pure guess on my part).  This way, it's just covering 90% of the absorbtion and reducing efficiency per square foot.

They'll do something, but I can't say what and they don't publish specs that I've seen (suspicious in and of itself).  As I've said before, ANYTHING in a corner will help some aspects of the sound.  I just hate to waste those places on something that's relatively narrow in it's effectiveness.

I don't think they're garbage, I just think they're WAY overpriced for what they are.  I'd probably rather have a bunch of those over foam that will do little to nothing.  Given the choice of those vs something that will reach into the subwoofer range for 1/2 the money, I'll take the latter.

Bryan

[youngho]

I'm certainly not saying that Robin or the original reviewer didn't feel that their money was well-spent or that they didn't perceive a significant improvement. However, for me, an element of cognitive dissonance emerges when my perceptions don't match others' or objective measurements. For example, this is how I can tell when I've had a little too much wine, not that the world is actually spinning erratically on its axis, or that I have mild tinnitus, rather than something outside my head making a faint high-pitched noise when it's really quiet. On the flip side, I do have an exceptional power of perception, which is that of perfect or absolute pitch, which most other people don't. However, this has been objectively verified on many, many occasions.

Well, Robin, rather than enter into any further discussion of solipsism or the subjective nature of humor, perhaps we can agree to politely ignore each other in future? Cheers, and I'll raise a glass to you, perhaps even a second one in your stead.

Bob, I'm sorry if what I wrote seemed obscene in some way. The interpretation I had from the review was that he had the epiphany about room acoustics, actually tried some products that were not acceptable to him and his wife for various reasons, and ultimately ended up trying (and liking) the Cathedral Sound Room Dampening Panels.

(edit) FWIW, I believe in Ethan's integrity.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Bob, I'm sorry if what I wrote seemed obscene in some way.

Dude.....It's all good man. I understood and agreed 100% with what you've said.
I'm on your side. No apologies necessary. 

Bob

[Ethan Winer]

(edit) FWIW, I believe in Ethan's integrity.

Thanks. I hope it's clear to all present that I can only present the facts as I see them, backed up with measurement when possible. Had I measured an improvement with those panels it would have shown in the graphs. Now, in fairness, when I did these tests for the Cathedral guys they insisted that standard tests won't show their benefit because standard tests don't measure the right things. But they weren't able to describe what I should measure, so that's as far as we went. Regardless - Robin, if you hear an improvement, no way will I say you're wrong.

--Ethan

[mmakshak]

  I'm no expert on acoustics, as the sound of my room would attest to.  I do have Cathedral Sound Panels, ASC tube traps, an RPG abfussor, and some DIY diffusers.  I do remember replacing a Lenrd bass trap with two Cathedral Sound Panels in the upper corner of my troublesome corner.  The Lenrd bass trap eliminated a bass boom that was caused by that corner.  The Cathedral Sound Panels eliminated that same bass boom, and sounded better than the Lenrd to boot(The Lenrd dulled the sound too much).  Just for the record, the Lenrd is a big foam bass trap.  I will be getting more ASC tube traps and some 8th nerve rectangles to try them out in my room.