[Toka]

Since I'm always on the lookout for the next-best MM cartridge I wanted to see if there were any impressions on this site. I've found bits and pieces on other sites (all raves), but I've come to find many kindred spirits in these here parts. Same stylus as the $2K Jubilee...pricy compared to other top MM's but if its the real deal...so be it.

http://www.ortofon2m.com/?link=specifications/black

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Toka! This cartridge is $599.00 in the US....    That's insane for a mostly machine-made product (as most Ortofons are, and why their priciest moving coils tend to be a little less dear than others).

What more, ALL moving magnet and iron cartridges are electrically inferior to moving coils....for probably many more reasons than I understand, but primarily due to relatively higher inductance and DC resistance figures.  This is an unassailable fact. All one can do to tip the scales back a bit is maximize the advantages of a moving magnet designs inherent mechanical superiority.  A tight fitting cartridge, highly polished Shibata stylus all help that cause.

However, this cartridge is a dog for value - merely due to it's incredibly high 630 mH of inductance.  It will never have the low noise presentation of any moving coil - not even close.  Any reasonably constructed and somewhat carefully damped moving coil, high or low output, will likely slay this cartridge.  You know the oft-used audiophool term 'transparancy' of this or that moving coil....well, that's likely no more than absolutely superior inductance figures.  Add to that much lower DC resistance (more signla passes with lower resistance), then you have a cartridge that is totally inferior to any judiciously damped moving coil cartridge.

With 630mH of inductance, it has no chance whatsoever of an extended treble response (ie, transparency).

Just plug in inductance of 630mH and typical capacitance of 150pf....and you'll see this cartridge is hopeless: http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

Ortofon seriously flubbed in pricing.  For $200.00, this cartridge would be a good value.  At $599, it's a laughably poor value 

I need not hear it.....with sky high inductance and DC resistance the Danes should never ask anywhere near this much for this cartridge. 

Go buy a Stanton 681/D11s from KABUSA with hi-polish stereohedron (akin to Shibata tip profile)...it'll give you much the same performance as it has closely aped inductance and resistance figures - all for 1/4 less. 

http://www.kabusa.com/SS1200b.pdf

[GBB]

. . . ALL moving magnet and iron cartridges are electrically inferior to moving coils....

. . . I need not hear it.....

Go buy a Stanton 681/D11s . . .

John,
This has got to be one of the odder posts I've seen in quite a while.  If memory serves, almost every post I've seen from you in the vinyl circle has extolled the virtues of cheap MM cartridges such as the Grado.  Yet now you're saying that all MM cartridges are inferior to MC cartridges.  But you can't quite get yourself to go along with that idea so you end up recommending . . .  another MM cartridge.  So what exactly was the point you were trying to make about MC vs. MM cartridges?

Inquiring minds want to know.

---Gary

p.s.  I'm especially glad to see that you've now developed the ability to completely know how a component sounds merely by reading the spec sheet.  That saves so much time.  Now I won't even need to listen to my system - I can just read the spec sheets over and over . . .

[TheChairGuy]

Gary,

ALL moving magnet and iron cartridges are electrically inferior to moving coils.....but some are less inferior than most (Grado, for instance - with 45mH inductance and 475 ohms DC resistance).

For under $200.00, you cannot buy much in a moving coil...it is the near exclusive domain of MM/MI's (save the Denon DL-110/160)

At $599.00, there are far better MC values out there....and scores of MM/MI's.  I mentioned the venerable Stanton 681 as it has nearly the same inductance and resistance figures and a hi-polish stylus for 1/4 as much.  At $139.00, you are fine value. 

At $599.00, you have a chintzy, poor value MM and 630 mH inductance cartridge.

The Grado's are almost a hybrid among cartridges.  They exploit the inherent mechanical advantages of MM/MI's, with the lowest inductance figures of any MM/MI (still higher than MC's, of course).  So, it's a mechanically 'perfect' (ha - not really perfect, but substantially better than any MC by design), while still having passably decent electrical figures.  It furthers it's mechanical superiority by underdamping the entire transmission line...which leaves it open to microphonic tendencies, but allows more of the music to pass undamped and undeterred. 

Add a nude hyper-elliptical or Shibata profile and fluid damping (to gently damp output as it is underdamped purposely by design) and you have a first-class producer of vinyl sonics.  My first recommendation is a Grado, but I recommended the Stanton mostly as it is electrically and mechanically a close cousin to the aforementioned Ortofon 2M Black for 1/4 as much.

For $500, one can buy the Grado Sonata Reference....but it only has a nude elliptical (too bad).  Probably the best value is to buy a Grado Green for $80 and get it re-tipped by Sound-smith for $250.00.  If you have a fluid damped arm - that adds a whole new measure of performance.

You'd have a cartridge that would run veritable circles around the Ortofon for nearly half as much   

I could really do without the snippy, passive aggressive, catty and scorned woman-like remarks, ya' know Gary?.....

John

[GBB]

For under $200.00, you cannot buy much in a moving coil...it is the near exclusive domain of MM/MI's (save the Denon DL-110/160)

John,
I'm giving you a slightly hard time because you haven't heard most of these cartridges yet you're giving very authoritative sounding recommendations.  Designing a phono cartridge is rather complicated - balancing mechanical and electrical resonances and output level.  Saying definitively that a cartridge can't sound good because of the choice the designer made in the electrical resonance, sounds like a rather narrow way of deciding upon it's virtues.  There are a lot of reviews on the web saying that the Ortofon 2M Black sounds really good and I don't doubt this.  Depending on the choice of arm and phono stage, this could very well be true.  If you object to the price then you can chose some of the lesser Ortofon 2M series (Bronze, Red, etc.) and start cheaper to see if you like the family sound.

Getting back to the question of MM vs. MC - I have been a long time user of MC cartridges.  When I started with vinyl in the 90s, I went through the usual series of ADCs and Shures and Stantons and Grado cartridges before realizing that I needed an MC cartridge to get the sound that I wanted.  But once I went down that path, I needed to upgrade my phono stage and have eventually added step up transformers.  So this isn't a path for the faint of heart. 
The low cost champion in the MC camp is the Denon DL-103.  You can get these on ebay for <$200.  If you've got any DIY moxie then you can take the cartridge out of it's cheap plastic package and put it in a nice wood body from Uwe (look in vinyl asylum for Uwe).  Build a step up with some Cinemag transformers for another $100 and you'll have a phono combination that isn't embarassed by ones costing thousands.

Perhaps we should stop hijacking Toka's thread and actually see if anyone on the board has heard the Ortofon as opposed to just touting our personal favorites.

---Gary

[TheChairGuy]

I happen to think the Ortofons were good value (The VMS 20, and X5-MC are very good models).....but the recent USD/Euro has affected the value here and Ortofon's decision to raise prices in the past year has further hurt their value quotient.

At $200, they'd have a competitively good product.  At $600, they have a seriously overpriced product on their hands with limited 'transparency' and treble extension.  It might sound good, but it shouldn't be $600.00.  Subjectivity aside, the very real objective elements of it's design don't meet a $600 price point. 

Various Stantons, Goldring's, the obligatory AT's and Grado's would likely be better values than any Ortofon nowadays for MM's.  For MC's, there are still many choices less than $600 (even with $125 Denon step-up added) that would be more attractive values.

John

[lcrim]

Haven't heard the cartridge in question but I'm very entertained by this thread.

[Wayner]

Toka,

Have you ever tried the AT 150? I'm curious that it didn't see a price hike like the 440, but seems to be better built and now with just a $50 price breakpoint between the 2, either the 150 is a tremondous value or the 440 has become a rip-off.

Wayner

[Toka]

Yea, the AT-150MLX is pretty much the "other" one when looking at modern production MM's...I kinda realized I'll need to have more than one cart depending on what I'm listening to, so big ($1K+) money carts are a no-no (not that I was thrilled with the idea, anyway). I figure a solid MM will always have a use somewheres.

Oddly enough, my go-to choice is shaping up to be exactly what GBB mentioned...DL-103 (with some sort of aftermarket fiddling, naturally). Moot point at the moment, don't even have the TT I want to put them on, yet. 

Anyway, feel free to discuss whatever pops into your minds...if nobody here has heard the Ortofon this thread is already over!

[TheChairGuy]

Toka, try this website: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/daveyw/cartridges/cartridges/

The Ortofon 2M Black is about 3/4 of the way down.  Davey is a very helpful fella' that hangs out over at the Vinyl Engine 

John

[Toka]

Weird...I found that site before but the clips didn't work...now they do!  Thanks for reminding me to check it...sounds pretty good to me! 

[slippers-on]

Hey Toka! This cartridge is $599.00 in the US....    That's insane for a mostly machine-made product (as most Ortofons are, and why their priciest moving coils tend to be a little less dear than others).

What more, ALL moving magnet and iron cartridges are electrically inferior to moving coils....for probably many more reasons than I understand, but primarily due to relatively higher inductance and DC resistance figures.  This is an unassailable fact. All one can do to tip the scales back a bit is maximize the advantages of a moving magnet designs inherent mechanical superiority.  A tight fitting cartridge, highly polished Shibata stylus all help that cause.

However, this cartridge is a dog for value - merely due to it's incredibly high 630 mH of inductance.  It will never have the low noise presentation of any moving coil - not even close.  Any reasonably constructed and somewhat carefully damped moving coil, high or low output, will likely slay this cartridge.  You know the oft-used audiophool term 'transparancy' of this or that moving coil....well, that's likely no more than absolutely superior inductance figures.  Add to that much lower DC resistance (more signla passes with lower resistance), then you have a cartridge that is totally inferior to any judiciously damped moving coil cartridge.

With 630mH of inductance, it has no chance whatsoever of an extended treble response (ie, transparency).

Just plug in inductance of 630mH and typical capacitance of 150pf....and you'll see this cartridge is hopeless: http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

Ortofon seriously flubbed in pricing.  For $200.00, this cartridge would be a good value.  At $599, it's a laughably poor value 

I need not hear it.....with sky high inductance and DC resistance the Danes should never ask anywhere near this much for this cartridge. 

Go buy a Stanton 681/D11s from KABUSA with hi-polish stereohedron (akin to Shibata tip profile)...it'll give you much the same performance as it has closely aped inductance and resistance figures - all for 1/4 less. 

http://www.kabusa.com/SS1200b.pdf

Boy...this guy could not be any more wrong! The 2M balck is an excellent cart and sells very well. Makes no sense whatsoever make such remarks at  a cart un heard.

[DaveyW]

Davey is a very helpful fella' that hangs out over at the Vinyl Engine 

Err! Used to John - unfortunately no more 
It's been quite a while now since the moderator elected to close down my account and remove all my posts, following my first post here as a matter of fact.
Still don't understand the reasons.
You're not the only one who believes I'm either still a member or elected to close my account voluntarily.

Anyway to the matter at hand.

Weird...I found that site before but the clips didn't work...now they do!   Thanks for reminding me to check it...sounds pretty good to me! 

Yes I think I've finally fixed that - glad you've had a chance to have a listen to the clips, should give at least a little of the flavour of what to expect.
The Black is indeed a very nice cart and certainly no issues in top end delivery as far as I'm concerned, but I do agree with John that it is probably a little on the pricey side.
Does it offer anything over the AT 150MLx??? - Personally I'd say not a great deal, subtle tonal differences but no extra control or definition, I'd be happy with either.

If I was spending that sort of money though I would be strongly considering the Grado Reference Sonata 1, need to be mindful of the dreaded Grado hum issues, but if you're free of those and like that fulsome Grado presentation then it's a very nice cart. I have tried fancy stylii on lesser Grado Prestige models - the RS1 topped them all.

Much of what we recommend Toka really does depend on what type of sound you are looking for, eg. Lush and Rich or lean, dry and dynamic - the range of characters various carts can bring to the party is quite surprising.
We also need to get a flavour of the rest of your intended rig.

Cheers
Dave

[TheChairGuy]

Yo Dave,

This topic is from 2008....YOU and I both hung out at VE back then

JaS done did a little overzealous cleanup....and I think some babies got tossed with the bathwaters 

John

[DaveyW]