[modular747]

But are the attitudes of the two camps so different: (Over-generalization alert, beware!!) -

"My textbook says there can be no difference, therefore you and the tens of thousands of you who say you hear differences are simply wrong

Not  at all.  Actual objective people say "the differences you hear can't be objectively shown to be due to the cables at all, let alone the pseudo-science marketing gibberish claimed by their manufacturers."

It's ironic that the same people who reject objective scientific method to evaluate their product, use fake "science" to market to their scientifically ignorant customers.

[Tweaker]

Not  at all.  Actual objective people say "the differences you hear can't be objectively shown to be due to the cables at all, let alone the pseudo-science marketing gibberish claimed by their manufacturers."

Unless I misunderstood Frank's last post he said that the differences can be objectively shown to be due to the cables but what is being heard is a form of distortion due to an overly high cable capacitance.
Frank, there was a long discussion at the Horn Shoppe forum about how great "sounding" a very inexpensive Woods or Utilitech brand outdoor extension cord is when used as speaker wire. I also found it to be the case and am wondering if it is because it is similar in construction and guage to what you advise? The way most people are connecting  it is one wire +, two wires -. If so I would think that it would be a lot easier just buying the wire you suggest rather than butchering an extension cord to get the same results.

[Wayner]

I believe the message is that plain old 2 conductor speaker wire, good. Exotic, braided or twisted wire, bad.

Wayner

[BrianM]

I believe the message is that plain old 2 conductor speaker wire, good. Exotic, braided or twisted wire, bad.

Wayner

Well, I'm not aware of a set definition for "exotic" unless you just mean pricey.  But a pricey cable doesn't have to be bad, it could just be overpriced.  As for braided and twisted, i.e. higher capacitance, isn't it a matter of degree?  Loose twisting can raise capacitance, but how much is too much?  I don't disagree that plain old wire is good, I've heard it myself.  I'm more interested in knowing exactly how bad gets defined, in number terms I suppose.  How do you define too high capacitance - not enough to fry the amp but enough to cause distortion?

[Wayner]

My idea of exotic cable is one that has not only several different conductors, but are in a strange geometry like a braid or weave or a twist. I've seen some recent offerings that have several different gauges of solid wire like some 20 ga, and 18 ga, and 16 ga. twisted together and terminated with a fork or a banana. That is not normal everyday speaker wire. I'm sorry Brian, I have no line to draw either. I just feel that If I see some wire that has had some extra exotic engineering, I stay away from it. I've even used 16ga. lamp cord for speaker wire. it's cheap. It maybe looks like non-audiophile wire but it works.

Wayner

[BrianM]

Do you happen to know what any of the capacitance measurements are for any of these braided designs?  I want to gather info and it's kinda hard to track down.  Anyone?

[Tweaker]

I've never considered SignalCable products "exotic" but they do have what they describe as a "Internal Twisted, Cross Linked Geometry" and he does give electrical characteristics:
http://signalcable.com/classicspeaker.html
 Unfortunately I don't have the background to know if the listed capacitance is good, bad, or indifferent.

[BrianM]

Thanks Tweaker.

So that cable shows nom. capacitance of 21.8pF/ft.  My Anticables, according to Paul's website, are .048nF/ft when twisted a few times per foot (which converts to 48pF/ft).  No exotic braiding (obviously), and apparently more than double the capacitance of the highly geometric Signal Cables.  I believe I've seen "exotic" cables spec'ing at up to 500pF/ft, so...I guess I'm confused now.

[Tweaker]

Now I'm thinking that the Woods/Utilitech wire everyone, myself included, is going ga-ga over is a high capacitance design, being that it's twisted, and causing the distortion Frank talks about. That in turn makes me wonder if our ear/brain doesn't kind of like a certain amount of distortion. I remember reading years ago a test done in Sweden, if I remember right, with a group of non-audiophiles who were given an analog tape recording, a digital tape recording and live performance of a three piece chamber orchestra to listen to without knowing which was which and the preference was the analog first, digital second, and the live last. I know this is probably obvious to many of you but  maybe what cable companies are selling us, for better or worse,is a way to add a pleasing-to-our-ears distortion to the playback chain.

[BrianM]

I think Larry's point was that AVA has had the same problem that R.Russell & McIntosh had - having would-be customers get hung up on speaker wire, when they ought to have been concentrting on the amps and pre-amps.

The length of this thread kind of bears this out, eh? 

Do you mean to say "hung up" to the point of letting whatever preexisting ideas about cable they have dictate whether they buy a certain amp?  That seems kinda far-fetched?  If that were a business obstacle for AVA or any other company I guess I'd be surprised (I only skimmed parts of the article linked).  Maybe there are such people but I kinda doubt they would be shopping AVA in the first place.  (Anyone that hung up would no doubt be looking for certain bells and whistles not featured on AVA products, like rhodium plated inputs, yada yada.)  Of course, once someone decided on an AVA product he may well be inclined to obsess over "which cables work best" and he may well choose to ignore Frank's wisdom on the topic.  Or he may just decide to fiddle around a bit sometimes, for giggles (like me).  I don't see the length of this thread being related to any particular hang-ups from anybody, though.  As usual, people have their opinions about wire.  Frank, not for the first time, brought up the good and interesting point about speaker cables that may be literally unsafe with certain gear, and that certainly is something worth getting hung up about (i.e. one would definitely want to know if one were flirting with such a possibility, or adding distortion unawares).

[Toka]

I believe I've seen "exotic" cables spec'ing at up to 500pF/ft, so...I guess I'm confused now.

Heck, 500pF/ft is small change in Exotica...some "flat" cables (which shall remain namless) clock in at well over 1,000pF/ft! 

[modular747]

Unless I misunderstood Frank's last post he said that the differences can be objectively shown to be due to the cables but what is being heard is a form of distortion due to an overly high cable capacitance.

You did read it wrong.  What Frank described was an interaction between a high cable capacitance and a poorly designed output circuit resulting in ringing and increased distortion.  Such is not the case in most instances.  The point is whether the perceived audible changes can be shown to be due to the cable and not other factors.  The only way to do this is with true blind testing and statistical analyses.  This has been tried many times without any evidence that "audiophiles" can reliably detect a difference between cables. Cable tweekers always try to dismiss the results as due to quality of the electronics, speakers, source material, room acoustics, too many liberals living in the area etc.  It never matters what equipment or listening setup is used; they always refuse to accept any result that contradicts their beliefs and biases.

[rustneversleeps]

I am so sick and tired of this topic. The reason that this topic still alive is because the big name audio magazines endorse this kind of BS.

All we need is to have John Atkinson and his cloneys to come out and say "fancy cables are BS", then this topic would never come up ever again.