[avahifi_lj]

Hi:

Yesterday I came across a Web article on speaker wire that I originally found in 2002.  I did a new search and found the author has updated his findings, and added a bit more content.  His findings are what I have experienced.  If you are interested, take a look at the following site:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#thetruth

Larry

[Wayner]

Finally, someone else denouncing snake oil!!!!!! Wire is wire. That's all it is.

Thanks Larry!

Wayner 

[rollypolly]

I would recommend to folks to get some broadcast quality spec'ed cables from such places as http://www.bluejeanscable.com and use them as a baseline. Starting off with a known reference point of good quality cables by which to judge these "boutique" cables is necessary in understanding what's going on.

The other thing I would like to point out is that in the broadcasting biz cables come with technical specifications that sound and electrical engineers use on a daily basis. However, in the consumer world of audio it's a patch work where even the manufacturers don't know what the specs are on their own cables. This last point is highlighted in this cable comparison:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/speaker-cable-reviews-faceoff-2/speaker-cable-reviews-faceoff-2-page-7

Anyway, so far Audioholics has had 3 cable testing rounds with some interesting results especially if you're a DIY'er:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/speaker-cable-face-off-1/
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/speaker-cable-reviews-faceoff-2/
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/diy-speaker-cable-faceoff/

Cheers!
Rolly

[reflex]

There are those who believe there are sonic differences in audio system wiring used...and there are those that do not.  It's always been that way and it always will be.  Are either right?  Yes and no.  If you hear a difference and believe that what you hear is valid, then you are right.  If you don't hear a difference and the lack of any audible difference supports your belief that all wire sounds the same...then you are right too.  And, of course, both camps are wrong too.  It all depends on who hears what (or not).

What has always amazed me though, is that the group of listeners who feel they can detect sonic differences in cabling understand and accept that the other side indeed heard no differences (for the most part...there are always the exception who thinks the other guys are deaf).  They typically don't condemn them for not hearing the same things.  On the other hand, those who hear no differences ALWAYS pass off any opinions of the other side as "a placebo effect", "snake oil" or some such delusionment.  They typically take a self-righteous attitude that those who feel improvements have been made by using particular cables in their system are just plain wrong.  There is never, ever, ever, any interest in why the other guy might have his opinion....what might be causing him to hear what he hears.  No interest in level of system that might be revealing those differences heard, just a flat denial that they exist and condemnation for any other consideration.  Waveforms and graphs and measurements are offered as proof that everything is the same...yet no acceptance of the fact that perception of performance of any two or more wires used might...just might, reveal a bit more than all those measurements can provide.

Don't believe me?  Do a search of this or any other forum and look for threads where cables are discussed.  See if you can find any example of those that don't believe they matter are willing to be opened-minded to the fact that they might be wrong...or better, that they have just not experienced it yet.

[Wayner]

reflex,

Have you ever thought that some of us have been into audio for 40+ years and have tried every type of crap most people haven't even thought of. It goes round in circles and gets no where because it goes no where. I get more effect moving my speakers around than I would get swapping cables out until I'm blue in the face. Enough said on this topic.

[reflex]

reflex,

Have you ever thought that some of us have been into audio for 40+ years and have tried every type of crap most people haven't even thought of. It goes round in circles and gets no where because it goes no where. I get more effect moving my speakers around than I would get swapping cables out until I'm blue in the face. Enough said on this topic.

50+ years here...33 in the business itself and I hear differences in every cable comparison.  If you don't, good for you.  I guess it keeps the cost down when cabling your system.  I happen to think the high-priced stuff is WAY over-priced.  I'm using $415 8' biwire speaker cables and interconnects that cost less than $100.  Because they sound the best.  And I can get any Audioquest wire for 25% of retail.  The stuff I'm using sounds better than wire that would retail for 5 times the price.  Moving speakers will make a bigger difference...room treatment maybe even more so.  But neither negate the differences I hear in cables as well.  It's all cumlative. 

[mfsoa]

Reflex,

What has always amazed me though...

I find this to be very well said - I hadn't thought of it this way before.

Another corollary to your post is that if the wire believers express their opinion, they are usually categorized as believing ALL of the cable marketing and pricing BS, like there can be no middle ground.

While I hear differences with each cable swap (including thinking that the beautiful, expensive retail cables I bought sounded like crap (now there's proof of the placebo effect!!) Or, doing cable swaps, forgetting to replace them the way they were and wondering, for days, why the system just sounds off) I still believe that there is a ton of BS out there and that many (most) cables are ridiculously overpriced.

Why does there not seem to be a middle ground, as Reflex suggests?

-Mike

[rollypolly]

Well, I'm getting off this merry go round before it gets started.

The whole point to my post is that folks do the research and listen with their own ears. Draw whatever conclusions you want but please don't take anything in this industry as gospel. Trust your own ears.

And as for the rest, in Jimmy Buffet's words

"Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care." 

Cheers!
Rolly

[markC]

Well, I'm getting off this merry go round before it gets started.

The whole point to my post is that folks do the research and listen with their own ears. Draw whatever conclusions you want but please don't take anything in this industry as gospel. Trust your own ears.

And as for the rest, in Jimmy Buffet's words

"Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care." 

Cheers!
Rolly


Yea, Larry, Ya just had to poke the sleeping bear, didn't Ya? I know it's supposed to be spring next week, but Ya should have let Him sleep. 

[BrianM]

I've heard, or thought I've heard, differences between different cables.  For me they are always pretty easy to describe (at least to my own mind) and of course, they may be imaginary.  Whenever I can't be sure whether I'm imagining something in audio or not, I'm reminded that such being the case, it by definition can't be an issue worth obsessing over.  Room, placement, and your actual gear, as everyone agrees, are exponentially more important concerns, the careful selection of which will render superlative sound from even the cheapest wire.  But then I tend to think most people assume the differences even between different components to be greater than they in fact are.  They may be "obvious" differences, but really more in the way that the number 85 is obviously greater than 86, but becomes less so if the frame of reference is 1 to 1000.  In the grand scheme these are subtle differences!  Personally I don't even think a lot people would pass a blind test more than 60% of the time if it involved moving their speakers out an additional two feet into their rooms.  In my opinion and experience.  So where does that leave the wire?  Others will disagree...Anyway once you tackle those first concerns it can be fun to play around with different wire using the money you're comfortable spending.  It's a feel good thing, like tasting different wines.  Wine tasting isn't all that fun unless the underlying conditions are just right.

[2bigears]

  will this topic ever die !!!! i just bought 4 sets of sc and by George,there better be a different flavor in each and every one,or i will have to sell them all and become a believer .... .... 

[Wayner]

I find it interesting how different the sides are to this debate. One side has facts, figures and the use of the sciences plus a rather unique speaker wire testing machine (read the article on the website), and the other side offers no science, no facts, no figures........only opinions. Technology advances on sound and solid engineering proven through the test of time. It can't be advanced on opinions and theories.

We live in a world with finite materials at our disposal. Engineers are supposed to design products that use these materials sensibly and with economics, not by opinions and hunches.

Exotic cables exploit precious raw materials (copper) and plastics (from oil), marketed by very clever salesmen to pray on those who do not understand the math, the science or even the scope of exotic cables This, of course, adds to pollution of the environment and depletion of raw materials. It is the ego swelled from pride of ownership. It is a boast or claim that you can hear better than me. It is an opinion that your system has better detail, wider soundstage, larger dynamics than my systems. Yet, I find many of you still tweaking, still changing wires, using cable elevators, power conditioners, exotic cable interconnects, contact fluid, Myrtle wood blocks, rocks, power cords, exotic outlets, exotic speaker wire connectors, sound absorbers, sound deflectors, vibration dots.......................it just goes on and on and on.

Your chasing a dream. There is very little if any science or math to it. That is why you continuously chase and replace...because you believe.

[DeanSheen]

We are all well aware that human science is very limited and the majority of the phenomena in the universe is beyond our ken yet this argument remains. 

I broke out the popcorn yesterday when I saw the first post.  It's still fun to watch the fire.

Ohh, & "I believe"

(there are differences in cables)

[mfsoa]

But are the attitudes of the two camps so different: (Over-generalization alert, beware!!) -

"My textbook says there can be no difference, therefore you and the tens of thousands of you who say you hear differences are simply wrong"

or

We believe that we hear differences with cable swaps, if you don't, that's cool, I'm not in your head and don't pretend to be.

Without opinions and theories (Hmmm, I feel cold, maybe another bearskin will help. Wow, it did! Maybe If I start the night with 2 bearskins...) technology would have no reason to advance on sound and solid engineering.

If I wasn't chasing a dream, I'd have no reason to be involved in this hobby!

-Mike

[Brett Buck]

But are the attitudes of the two camps so different: (Over-generalization alert, beware!!) -

"My textbook says there can be no difference, therefore you and the tens of thousands of you who say you hear differences are simply wrong"

or

We believe that we hear differences with cable swaps, if you don't, that's cool, I'm not in your head and don't pretend to be.

Without opinions and theories (Hmmm, I feel cold, maybe another bearskin will help. Wow, it did! Maybe If I start the night with 2 bearskins...) technology would have no reason to advance on sound and solid engineering.

If I wasn't chasing a dream, I'd have no reason to be involved in this hobby!

-Mike

   Except it's not "if you don't hear the difference, it's cool", it's much more often "if you don't hear the difference, you just aren't up to our level and your equipment is mid-fi" sort of condescending commentary. If that's not you, then good for you, but the usual "this cable sounds just wonderful" commentary is usually dripping with condescention when anyone challenges the view. Add that to the fact that no one can tell the difference unless they know it has been swapped tends to negate the "it sounds better to me" argument. That and the laws of physics.

    Most of all, arguing it here is classic trolling. Of course not many people who are interested in a solid engineering approach to audio (and are thus drawn to Frank and company message board) are going to be swayed by "I can hear the difference and you can't" subjective arguments.

     Brett

[mark funk]

Can some one help me? Just how high off the floor should my speaker cable be?

[2bigears]

    there has to be,gotta be a sonic signature to all changes in the line-up.But you need to A and B them back to back.This is what i kinda think,and will soon have 4 sets of cable in house,sooooo i should hear something ????  low-fi and even mid-fi is most likely hard sells.

[Listens2tubes]

 All this falls under the heading Do No Harm. Raise your hand if you like the sound of your equipment.  That's a trick question  how did you answer? 

[avahifi]

Yes I can hear differences between some brands of speaker cables and interconnects.   

I was disappointed in the first article referenced above by Larry (Roger Russell's informative writing about this subject for McIntosh).

The problem is that a significant issue regarding wire and cable design was overlooked.

The issue is that a capacitive load on the output of most amplifiers and preamplifiers slows down the output current amplifier section, causing a large high frequency correction peak to arrive at the summing point of input and feedback in the device, often arriving late.  This causes the voltage amplifier to both attempt to generate a correction signal that overloads the circuit, or, in a bad case, generate a high frequency spike and decreases overall stability as the negative feedback actually goes positive.

This can be easily observed on the test bench watching how the device under test behaves.  Square wave response goes to flanders as the capacitive load increases.

In some cases the output signal still looks good, because a slow output current amplifier section can actually roll off the overstressed signal from the voltage amplifier section and hide the results from the test equipment.  However if you move the test probes to the output of the voltage amp section then you can see all the damage before the current amplifier has the chance to hide it.

Way too many "testophiles" overlook the fact that the amp or preamp is not a black box.  It is a voltage amplifier connected to a current amplifier (even the insides of a linear IC have this construction - its just that you can't get inside them to see how badly the signal is being abused).

Anyway, the point is that an interconnect cable or speaker wire of a construction type that trades off inductance for capacitance can easily present a  load to an amp or preamp that significantly increases the distortion of the musical signal.  A good example is using a multi-strand "woven or braided" type cable, which almost always will significantly increase the capacitive load, a very bad idea.

A worse case example of this occurred several years ago.  Threshold came out with a new series of amplifiers, and they eliminated the normal output inductor from the design.  Common good engineering practice is to use this element to protect the amplifier from the effects of an adverse capacitive load.  The signal rolloff caused by this is way way way out of the hearing range, with a pole point no lower than 100K Hz or so.  Threshold assumed that the inherent series inductance of a speaker wire would be enough protection, so that the output inductor would be redundant.  Bad assumption.

At the same time Polk audio sprang their very fancy Cobra Cables on the audiophile world. These were multistranded braided very fine speaker wires, beautifully done, with hundreds of interwoven strands of tiny wires.  This essentially eliminated the dreaded inductance and instead presented a huge capacitive load to the output of the amplifier.

Unfortunately, connecting the output of a Threshold amplifier to the speakers with Cobra Cables caused the amplifier to go into full bore oscillation and self destruct!  Could anyone then hear the difference!  Of course.  With new Cobra Cables, now you had no sound at all.  Actually you could even smell the difference 

This of course was a worse case situation.  Consider however that even with a smaller capacitive load, and even with an amplifier that could better tolerate that, the musical signal was still being damaged long before the problem was bad enough to completely kill the amplifier.

Capacitive loads modify the operation of an amplifier and or preamplifier!  The modification has a name - - - DISTORTION!

The effects may be subtile, but are almost always audible.  One thing we can see on the bench is a leading edge spike on a square wave generated by the capacitive load.  We suspect that audiophiles hear this as "increased detail".  Actually it is the same effect as turning up the "sharpness" control on you TV set.  This generates a leading edge spike on the transitions between dark and light sections of the picture.  A little bit can even make you think you are seeing more detail, too much and it is obvious eyestrain.  They same is happening with the transient spikes a capacitive load generates in your audio components. A little bit may actually fool you into believing that the "increased detail" you hear is a good thing.  However, it was not part of the original musical signal input.

So, can I hear the difference some speaker cables and interconnects generate?  Sure I can. I can hear the garbage that is not supposed to be there.  No problem.  Would I pay extra to get this nifty garbage?  You got to be kidding.

We design our amplifiers and preamplifiers to be as tolerant of capacitive loads as possible.  This is the reason some people think they are not good enough because they cannot hear significant differences in cable brands when they play the magic cable game.  They assume the components do not have the resolving power to differentiate the differences.  Actually they simply have such good stability in the face of a capacitive load that they are not distorting and are playing the input signal properly in spite of the abuse.  Oh well.

To repeat our recommendations.  14 gauge speaker wire from Home Depot terminated in dual banana plugs and their $5 a set interconnects are just fine.  Paying more is simply buying into fraud.  If you absolutely have to have premium wires and cables to feel good, look into Bluejeans Cables http://www.bluejeanscable.com/.  At least they are built to good engineering standards.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[BrianM]

So how much of a capacitive load is too much? I.e. what capacitance range should one be looking for?