[acresm22]

Some questions for you cable gurus out there...

I'm thinking about rewiring my Klipsch LaScalas, and read some posts on AA about the merits of 18 gauge solid core wire. So I picked up a $5.99 package from Radio Shack containing three 15 ft. spools (red, black and green) of 18 awg solid core hook-up wire.
Question #1:  Should I twist the positive and negative runs from each LaScala driver to the crossover, or leave them untwisted?
Question #2:  Am also thinking of trying this stuff for a pair of speaker cables. In that case, would a braided run be better than a side-by-side-but-separated configuration? If braided is the way to go, should it be braided tightly or loosely?
Question #3:  Have any of you already experimented with this wire?

Thanks ACers!

[BrianM]

I use Anticables, which are 12 awg (I believe) solid core wire.  I have the + and - twisted loosely, which lowers the measured inductance and is supposed to improve HF extension.  (It may do that.)  I find solid core wire to be neutral sounding, don't know how the smaller gauge would work (probably just means you turn up the volume a little more).

[Wayner]

There is some scientific merit to solid wire, especially in low voltage hook-up wire as discoveries such as "skin effect" and things of that nature are becoming better understood. I believe most hifi manufacturers use solid hook-up wire..perhaps not because of the sound of it, but because it is easy to form, easy to solder and inexpensive to use. I personally have wondered about time alignment of stranded versus solid, but that is only a theory in my mind and I wonder if there is, or ever will be any solid proof of such an effect and if it is audible. In your speaker project, I see the solid wire as a bother more than a benefit, wondering if the wire will come into contact with the cabinet/components and start vibrating them as solid wire acts somewhat like a spring. Stranded wire just kind of hangs there. Of course it's always best to use good wire management practices in these regards. Twisting the wire will help with shielding which really shouldn't be a problem in this application, but it will increase the capacitance of the wires which is generally thought of as bad.

As far as using solid wire for speaker cable.....why? I really see no benefit here and I see the potential for problems with bending the wire, clamping it in a binding post, junk like that. Magnetic wire is really not UL listed for uses like speaker wire. It's used for stuff like motor windings.

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

I bought a few gauges of 'magnet' (solid core) wire a while back to test out as speaker cable.  It was a cheap experiment, all in all. They weren't noted as OFC or anything, just magnet wire.

The 12 and 13ga gave off a distinctive one note/flubby bass.....it was not until I got to the 16ga that it sounded right.  I tried 22ga (I don't think I had anything in-between) and it was allright, too, but a little thin tonally.

Nonetheless, I found all the magnet wire cables to sound loud (odd that they actually sound louder than other types of wire) and powerful, but really did a bad number on the bass (qualitatively, not quantitatively).

My fave is Alpha-Core Goertz MI-2 (can't really be used internally due to hookup method) and next best is el cheapo 16ga speaker cable from Radio Shack.  I tried 10 and 12 ga. from Radio Shack, King Cable (Parts Express) and Monster Cable and they sounded less 'right' than the thinner gauge.

I have short speaker cabling...only 6' per side.

Enjoy, John

[acresm22]

Thanks all for your comments/ideas. I'm actually using Goertz MI1 in my system right now, but have a hankering to do some experiements with inexpensive alternatives. I made up a pair of the Walmart Yardmaster patio cord cables, and plan to compare those with the Goertz and the Rat Shack 18 awg solids when I get them put together. Heck, I may even end up using the patio cord for the internals of my LaScalas ; )

Wayner, this 18 awg solid stuff from Radio Shack is really pretty flexible, so I don't think I'll have difficulty with bends and angles. I know that's definitely a consideration with heavier gauge solid wire though.

[acresm22]

BTW...my amp is an ASL 300B SET amp. The rumored synchronicity between low powered tube amps and thinner gauge speaker wire is another reason I want to try the 18 awg solids.

[TheChairGuy]

Additional btw....my solid core tests were on solid state amps (Odyssey, I think, at the time).  Now I use tube amps.

Regards, John

[DaveC113]

I had about the same experience as TCG, although the Anti-Cable 12 ga speaker wire is better than whatever 12g magwire I tried previously. I haven't tried it yet, but I'd guess using a few different gauges of magwire might work ok. The walmart cable is pretty good, I look forward to hearing what you have to say vs the Goertz.

Dave

[Wayner]

anti cables are made from magnet wire.

Wayner

[DaveC113]

anti cables are made from magnet wire.

Wayner

master of the obvious...

[Wayner]

Then how do 2 identical wires sound different?

[FredT300B]

BTW...my amp is an ASL 300B SET amp. The rumored synchronicity between low powered tube amps and thinner gauge speaker wire is another reason I want to try the 18 awg solids.

Several of my fellow Lone Star Bottlehead members have use very small gauge wire (20ga) between low power SET amps and high efficiency speakers with positive results. I believe the difference may be due to the greater resistance of small gauge wire, which may have a beneficial effect on the driver's bass response by increrasing  the "Q". Somebody who understands the  techinal implications of using small gauge higher resistance wire might be able to help here.

I have found with solid state amps and average sensitivity (and high resolution drivers) speakers some inexpensive wires sound better than others. Generic twisted strand speaker wire doesn't provide the greatest resolution. My favorite affordable wire so far has been Belden Series 5000 high purity copper ten and twelve ga wire. The ten ga versus the 12 ga appears to enhance the bass (or maybe I'm falling into the psychoacoustic trap of hearing more bass because the wire is fatter, but let's not go there). 

Anyway, the difference between generic 12 ga twisted wire (Monster, Royal OFC, Radio Shack, etc.) and the 12 ga Belden is very obvious to my ears. Bluejeans cable sells the 12 ga Belden for fifty seven cents a foot, so it's not expensive to buy a 20 foot length and do your own comparison. http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm

[DaveC113]

Then how do 2 identical wires sound different?

Different copper and insulation?  Mag wire comes in many different forms.

[TheChairGuy]

Then how do 2 identical wires sound different?

When they're not....really 

Different dialectrics, OFC (Anti-Cables) versus standard copper (typical magnet wire) are primary differences.  It does all seem to matter....tho mostly I prefer to live my life as if they don't.  It's easier on the soul 

John

[Wayner]

Is the Walmart extension cord OFC then? I don't get the correlation. OFC is good if it's solid magnet wire but doesn't matter if it's an extension cord with the ends snipped off? I believe most copper conductors are 99.99% pure to begin with. I'm impressed that you have the aural skills to hear .01 percent impurity.

 

[TheChairGuy]

High purity copper is 99.99% copper....the electrical grade stuff is less (tho I can't find online how much less).

Hi-purity copper has as much as 100 ppm (parts per million) of residual oxygen, while OFC has 3ppm.

http://books.google.com/books?id=pAOFt1znYr8C&pg=PA292&lpg=PA292&dq=copper+purity&source=web&ots=3S_hgnFLN_&sig=7YCiV-1cNX76kHunOOo0Zi4aknQ&hl=en#PPA292,M1

Love 'em or leave 'em, but important as they have the largest budget to fund such research, the folks at Monster Cable have long held that anything past OFC grade copper is inaudible....that past OFC grade it is other issues that effect cable performance. However, they cite that lower grades do degrade performance.

You might want to think about changing out your cheapie Blue Jeans cable with low purity copper to something higher end with OFC, like Monster Cable    Past that, it's probably a steep drop in pay versus performance.

Besides, I didn't say I could hear specific 'copper' differences, but have heard differences in relatively similar wire types before.  Tho, the variances of so many things are difficult to know, so I prefer to stay slightly agnostic about cables and concentrate on other matters in my system 

[BrianM]

I can think of no particular reason to use magnet wire for speaker cables.  I didn't buy Anticables because they're solid core wire; I bought them because I liked their low profile (I grew to dislike monster-thick speaker wire) and wanted to try out the concept of very minimal dielectric shielding.  They're not particularly easy to work with, it's true, but not unduly difficult either.  I think they look cool.  They weren't terribly expensive.  As for their sound, I've never compared them to any other brand of (DIY) magnet wire, but to me they sounded slightly cleaner (mainly in the HF) than what I was using before (Canare 4S11).  I'm certainly open to trying out other SCs which may indeed provide small improvement tweaks in this or that area of tonal balance for all I know.

[Wayner]

I found this read interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-free_copper

Wayner 

[acresm22]

That is interesting, Wayner. I've never been terribly hung up on the OFC designation or the number of 9s in my speaker cable choices, and the raves about the Walmart and Home Depot extension cord cables would bear that out I suppose.

[Wayner]

acresm22,

I'm not hung up on any of the wire or against any type. I do think much of it is hype. I thought the wikipedia article about how oxygen actually helps coppers' conductivity was interesting and how the condutivity of almost all types of electrical wires are almost identical (while the cost is not).

Good topic, good vollies from each other and still kept civil.... excellent.

How is the speaker project coming, anyway?

W