[earwig]

I have some single woofered 2 way speakers running on a clean sounding 100 +wpch amp played in a 13x13ft room played between 75db to 80db max.One small 170mm woofer for playing the dynamic digital bass may be too fragile for the techno trance electronica music I like.Perhaps if it only had an extra bass driver below it to share the stress, to make the speaker more durable.So Im thinking of changing to a 3 drivered speaker or a twin woofered 2 way with no smaller cones than two 170mm each at around the price range or less of my forrest speakers it would be much more suitable for me.Any recommendations appreciated.

[Crimson]

If you like the sound of your speakers, a sub (or two) will work wonders. Better foundation, lows, stage, not to mention allowing your speakers to shine where they really count.

[Zero]

What amp are you running on the Forests? Thats a speaker that should have absolutely no problems handling peaks of 105db very cleanly provided the right power is behind it.

 

[Zero]

Earwig,

Please forgive me if my questions seem a bit obvious;  but what exactly is it that you feel the Forests need? Do they distort/sound stressed at louder volumes? Do you feel there should simply be more bass?

[nodiak]

For techno and movies a good sub will really complete your nice system. More depth and control than most 3 ways. I like Rythmik subs, but you need to build or buy a box.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com
Don

[earwig]

No they produce actually decent and taut bass but feel perhaps one small  woofer could eventually be weakened over long term with bass dynamic music material.If you go to the lab youll see how Ive been struggling with this irritating buzz noise.

[bpape]

I'd agree with Nodiak.  A sub is likely your best bet for techo and HT duties. 

Bryan

[DeanSheen]

"Ive been struggling with this irritating buzz noise"

Sub. I listen to alot of eletronica and 2 ways cannot begin to reproduce the ridiculous amounts of sub 50hz frequencies that many artists throw in the mix. 

I have a sealed Adire Rava back from when Adire made complete units.  It works very well but I listen to a small percentage of material that causes it to buzz also.  I'm hoping a move to the Rhythmic servo units will cure this issue.

Now I just need to find plans for a 2.1 litre front firing cabinet  so I can build them. 

[earwig]

I am not all too keen on subwoofers.I have considered the subwoofer option and its not a bad idea at all .Ill think about it but Id rather choose to go for an entirely differant type of speaker ,with 3 drivers instead of a single woofered two way for the type of music I listen to the most .Id like it reach into the low frequencies with confidance that my speakers will reasonably endure reliably.I worried my single 170mm wont survive long term digital bass pounding into them.

[Double Ugly]

"Ive been struggling with this irritating buzz noise"

Sub. I listen to alot of eletronica and 2 ways cannot begin to reproduce the ridiculous amounts of sub 50hz frequencies that many artists throw in the mix. 

A sub may be earwig's best bet, but like most sweeping generalizations, the above is simply not true.

[DeanSheen]

Ok, not sure why you are against subs so much but I understand your desire for a full range.

I'm not aware of anything reasonable that would fit the bill. (except adding a sub)

These Gallo's may be something to consider used at $1500 - $1600 for the 3.0 model. Basically, Gallo took their 10" sub driver and mounted one sideways on each side of the speaker.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1207376001

http://www.roundsound.com/reference-3-speakers.htm

The HT3 and the HT8 may work.

http://www.rawacoustics.com/index.php

For 8k you can get a front firing 10" bass driver from these guys:

http://www.zuaudio.com/Presence.asp

For 11k you get four sub drivers a side on this one.

http://www.zuaudio.com/Definition_MK2.asp

[DeanSheen]

"Ive been struggling with this irritating buzz noise"

Sub. I listen to alot of eletronica and 2 ways cannot begin to reproduce the ridiculous amounts of sub 50hz frequencies that many artists throw in the mix. 

A sub may be earwig's best bet, but like most sweeping generalizations, the above is simply not true.

Yeah, I knew this was going to happen. Ok, it's just not true what are you trying to say?  I dont get your message.

I believe you but do you have any examples of real world speakers?  I have lots of examples of source material that I would love to throw at a two way that is capable of going down deep into the 30's.  That would solve me and Earwig alot of headaches.

[lonewolfny42]

SP Technology.....from the Timepiece 3.0's on up....no sub is need....it will play anything....at any volume.

[Double Ugly]

"Ive been struggling with this irritating buzz noise"

Sub. I listen to alot of eletronica and 2 ways cannot begin to reproduce the ridiculous amounts of sub 50hz frequencies that many artists throw in the mix. 

A sub may be earwig's best bet, but like most sweeping generalizations, the above is simply not true.

Yeah, I knew this was going to happen. Ok, it's just not true what are you trying to say?  I dont get your message.

You're kidding... right? 

The "message", broken down into it's simplest components -

• Your statement is a sweeping generalization.
• Most sweeping generalizations are not true.
• Your sweeping generalization is not true.

That anyone could be confused by my original post is... surprising.

I believe you but do you have any examples of real world speakers?  I have lots of examples of source material that I would love to throw at a two way that is capable of going down deep into the 30's.  That would solve me and Earwig alot of headaches.

I've no doubt there are others, but Chris' suggestion - the SP Technology Timepiece 3.0 - is -3dB @ 29Hz.  The Continuum 2.5 and Revelations go even lower, and the Revelations roll off @ 12dB per octave, meaning there is significant energy well into the teens.

All of the aforementioned "real world speakers" are 2-ways, meaning your assertion - "...2 ways cannot begin to reproduce the ridiculous amounts of sub 50hz frequencies that many artists throw in the mix." - is wholly inaccurate.

[lonewolfny42]

Dean.....Your about 15-20 miles away from a pair of SP Tech's...maybe you can have a listen....check with ted_b.

[DeanSheen]

Thanks guys, I'll check those out.

Your right about the generalization.  It wasn't meant to be technical but a statement on playback material and 2ways vs. subs. It was a generalization but this isn't exactly a post in the DIY forum or the design forum now is it? Just a conversation about how best to playback a particular type of music that goes outside the range of typical audiophile playback material.

I'll try it this way then:  Techno and electronica producers tend to throw ridiculous amounts of low bass in their recordings that are difficult for two ways to reproduce and it is much more practical and economical for a sub to take over these duties.

Ultimately a -3b @ 29hz isn't as good as flat to 20hz and beyond that a good sub is capable of.  I would still want a sub with the timepiece because my playback  material frequently uses frequencies below that range. 

That is pretty darn impressive though and i thank you both for your suggestions.

[lonewolfny42]

Dean....I've sent a PM to Ted....like I said...your close by...

[Double Ugly]

As I said before, earwig, a sub may be your best bet, especially from the standpoint of economics.

Nevertheless, unless the room is so large that it requires low frequency reinforcement, I submit there are few who believe the SP Tech Timepieces (or larger) require a sub.  Also worth considering is SP Tech's own sub, a transmission line beast called the Infra-Wave.

[doug s.]

earwig, plan on doing some room treatment if you want deep bass in a 13x13 room.  also, while it may not be intuitive, a stereo pair of subs will be easier to integrate into your room than a single mono sub.  this is because two sources of output will better load the room than one.

you can use either powered subs or passive subs.  i would recommend passive for a couple reasons - the outboard electronics are usually better; & ultimate flexibility is better.  also, actively crossing your totem's will relieve them of low-bass duty; if you buy powered subs, you really do not wanna run the totem's & their amp thru a powered sub's x-over.  however, if you find a decent pair of powered subs at a great price, you could always run them thru an outboard x-over, yust making sure the sub's built-in x-over is set at its highest setting, usually around 150hz or so.  that way, when you set the outboard x-over to ~60hz or so, it effectively eliminates the powered sub's x-over from the equation.  i actually did this once, when my system/living situation was in transition, & i wasn't able to use my vmps larger subs.  i found a pair of cheap powered subs, (yamaha yst-sw305's), & effectively ran them this way, still using an active marchand x-over...

here's a cut-n-paste i made from another thread, about subs:
vmps makes killer passive subs; i defer to others for actives.  but, for decent bass on the cheap, i *can* recommend looking for used yamaha yst-sw305 active subs.  w/two forward-firing 8" servo-controlled drivers, these are -3db at 28hz, -10db at 20hz.  in-room response will be better.  i had a pair of these in a ~16x24 room, & the bass was wery good.  no, not as good as my pair of vmps largers, but they're good enuff so that i didn't feel i need to spend silly money that i see some folk spending on powered subs.  and, you can still use these w/an active x-over.  yamaha has replaced this sub w/the yst-sw315 - a single down-firing 10"-driver sub w/the same specs.  never heard it, but a buddy of mine got one for one of his non-audiophile friends, & he said it was really amazing for the money.  you can get these on line (and on ebay) for ~$200 shipped...

doug s.

[miklorsmith]

Full range - good.  I wouldn't be looking to achieve it with 6.5" drivers though unless you're planning on a lot more than 2 per side.

Doug's post is a good one.