empty spaces inside Stratos

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Anton K.

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empty spaces inside Stratos
« on: 6 Oct 2003, 01:53 pm »
Has anyone looked under the top cover of stereo Stratos?
I've seen the innards of the amp, chassis could be 4 times smaller (and cheaper).
And as it is AB design, those huge heatsink-like side panels are absolutely unnecessary. Of course in such case dollar-per-pound (see Odyssey homepage)  would be nothing to write home about - too bad for Odyssey marketing people.

The point is, stereo Stratos could be made more affordable.
But, then Americans like everything BIG.

byteme

empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #1 on: 6 Oct 2003, 02:05 pm »
http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=516

Ya, I guess I see your point - look at all this wasted space  :roll:

How ridiculous a statement is this?  You a troll?

See, here's the deal, since they use the SAME chassis for the Stereo, Stereo Extreme, Mono, Mono Extreme, Dual Mono, and the HT3, they get economies of scale (things are cheaper the more you buy of them) by doing that.  Sure, maybe there is a little extra space in the Stereo, but look at the inside of a dual mono.

It's got nothing to do with your assessment that Americans need everything to be big.  Have you ever been here?  Do you know Americans?  Or are you basing all your in depth knowledge of Americans on the tired Euro stereotypes?

Anton K.

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empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #2 on: 6 Oct 2003, 02:22 pm »
to byteme:
i never ment to insult Americans. Ok, let's put it this way: some Americans like things big, and some companies use this when designing audio gear
No, I've never been to USA, but I used to have pen-friends in USA
Regarding economies of scale - agree to some extent
The point i was trying to make that claims "Pound-for-pound it's the best there is at just $16.52 per pound" are well, not very appopriate.
I can put innards of my USD 40 Panasonic tape recorder into 50 kg box and beat Odessey's Pound-for-pound ratio, and so what?
From the other posts I concluded Odessey must be indeed offering great sound for the money, but why use such dumb (is it the right word?) logic on their homepage and hope this will help selling the stuff?
And their specifations are fairly basic.

speedcenter

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empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #3 on: 6 Oct 2003, 02:46 pm »
there is space in the case because that allows Klaus to use the very same case for several models, which makes it cheaper to build.

And, well,  Anton, du hoerst dich wirklich ein wenig von der Roller an mit deinen Vorurteilen ueber Amerikaner und was Amerikaner moegen.  

Ich schlage vor erst mal zu fragen bevor man urteilt.

Peter

MaxCast

empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #4 on: 6 Oct 2003, 02:58 pm »
If you don't likie, don't buyie.

rosconey

empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #5 on: 6 Oct 2003, 03:00 pm »
his new 100 wpc amp was designed the way he suggests, thats how he kept the price down.

subhuman

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empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #6 on: 6 Oct 2003, 04:51 pm »
Klaus is no dummy  :nono:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=4917

You HAVE heard about the new Khartago? $750, smaller case, and better sounding than the Stratos from a year ago (Stratos has been further improved and refined since of course).

But, of course, you can't upgrade a Khartago to a pair of Mono Extremes or to the "Dual Mono" status.  That's because it's in a dinky "euro" case hehe.  :wink:

At the same time ... perhaps the ad copy is getting a bit old now ... here, I won't disagree.  But if you think Odyssey isn't offering value but huge empty cases, I think you've got a bit to learn :)

klaus@odyssey

empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #7 on: 6 Oct 2003, 07:02 pm »
That's fun,  hehehe.

Well, well, well.  First off,  I really like the experts who know quality,  both in build and performance,  by looking at numbers and pictures.  It's always nice to run acroos intuitive geniuses.  

You guys of course already know that indeed the Stratos case is a one size fits all approach for the different models for looks,  quality,  and obviously,  pricing.  How else could I possibly offer these models for these $$$???

See,  I really like the value per lbs part of our web site (and it stays there)  because there's a real issue with some products as far as cheap materials for a high $$$  is concerned. there is real rip off in this industry,  of course,  and why not showing people that we're different ?   Od course.   There's also a real corealtion between size / heft  at the right places and performance.  Temperature and vibration controls are 2 of them.  Is this our main sales push ???   You have to be an idiot to think so.

Smaller casing has indeed ne addressed with the Khartago.

Next,  it's not only the weight / $  ratio we're proud of,  but also the fact that  for a 1 k +  amp,  about $ 100.  in value go into the Audio Selection feet,  WBT's,  Neytrik's, etc.   Another $ 100.  into all Groneberg input and output wiring.   Transformers and caps are made to our specs for us.  and all the push and pull transistors are measured and hand selected for each and every amp,  including for the upcoming Khartago ???  All of this for a 1 k amp ???  And I shouldn't be proud of this?  

With the empty space inside the standard Stratos,  what can I say ?  It's as true as the empty space in some peoples brains.  Why not making good use of that space and addressing the real issues of performance and value.  With a bit more of what counts,  empty space can be filled and put to good use.

Late,

Klaus
Also,

speedcenter

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A related thread on another board
« Reply #8 on: 6 Oct 2003, 07:24 pm »
"Should we be buying SS amps by the pound?"

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/28851.html

Anton K.

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empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #9 on: 7 Oct 2003, 08:22 am »
Klaus, no need to be so agressive to potential customers!
I am sorry, i did not know about your new model Khartago - it looks really interesting and would not make me to be concerned about irrational allocation of resourses.
Anyway, having said that "smaller casing has indeed been addressed with the Khartago" IMO you acknowledged the fact that  SOUND-per-pound ratio of 1+ year old stereo Stratos can be further improved.
BTW, i said nothing bad about Stratos sound quality. It is your pound-per-pound approach that is misleading. Completely off the mark, I'd still say.

neilr11

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empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #10 on: 7 Oct 2003, 01:32 pm »
The weight of an amp is usualy correlated to the weight of the transformer. Larger/heavier being better. Not so with the Stratos with it's 400va transformer. Most of the weight is in the case.  My Coda-Continuum Stage+ amp, it has a 1400va tranformer, has a similar, but much smaller case and weighs 40 pounds. The weight of this amp comes from it's transformer, not an oversized heavy case.

Take a look of some of these new digital amps that weigh 30 pounds, early reports of the Carver's sound are excellent for a street price of around $675 for the ZR1000

I agree, the price/pound theory doesn't fly and has no correlation to the sound or value of an amp.

Eduardo AAVM

Re: empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #11 on: 7 Oct 2003, 06:09 pm »
Quote from: Anton K.


The point is, stereo Stratos could be made more affordable.
But, then Americans like everything BIG.



Of course BIG sound is the goal... whatever it takes...

markC

empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #12 on: 7 Oct 2003, 09:38 pm »
I had the empty space inside my stereo Stratos filled... With a DUAL MONO UPGRADE! Made perfect sense to me, put an upgradable amplifier in a large, spacious case so that a future upgrades can be done WITHOUT having to modifiy the case, which of coarse would cost extra dough. Don't think that the size of the case is a marketing ploy. And as for the oversized heat sinks being unnecessary, crank up the tunes for a couple hours and feel the heat sinks, they are indeed very functional, (especially with the dual mono). I should think that with little piss ant heat sinks there would indeed be an overheating problem. My old NAD comes to mind - it would shut down on thermal overload when I pushed it. My Dual Mono has never once had any trouble being pushed for hours at a time. Just my $0.02.

klaus@odyssey

empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #13 on: 7 Oct 2003, 10:24 pm »
Guys,
Thanks for chiming in.  Man,  this bull gets tiring, and really shouldn't be worth my time.

Anyway,
 1. Anton,  as far as aggressiveness is concerned,  I'm pretty much returning your tone of voice.

2.  As for the casing,  it's been explained by Mark, etc.  A smaller case is indeed more usable in the real world application,  so if anything,  it's a bit of a handicap,  but still necessary for teh different models.

3.  As far as your comments in regards to us and overall importance of specs and  your apparent personal tastes are concerned,  I'd like to encourage you to check out and buy another  amp than ours,  maybe the Coda that Neil likes so much.  

4.  As far as the Coda is concerned,  keep in mind that it's also several times the $ than the Stratos.,  and yes,  it's a decent amp for the $$$,  but in stiff competition to others in that $$$ range.  If one is so hung up on #'s,  how about the capacitance rating of 80,000 uF,  which is the other part of the ps.  It's tit for tat,  don't forget.

5.  Throwing VA ratings of transformers in the ring as an absolute shows complete ignorance.  There's so much about transformer design, efficiency,  burst capacity,  secondary, etc.  it's ridiculous.  We experimented with much bigger units,  and the amp simply sounds best with the 400 + unit.  That simple.  Putting in a 1000 VA + transformer for maybe $ 5 more would have been great for our marketing indeed, and I could go around and throw this number at anybody to make a stupid claim about superiority,  but it wouldn't have anything to do with the sound quality.

6.  The Coda,  btw,  is 55 lbs,  one shouldn't shortchange the unit either.  BUT,  it's completely wrong to say that the transformer is and should be the heaviest part of the amp for a couple of reasons,  a. because transformers are not that heavy.  Even very large ones rarely exceed 10 - 12 lbs.,  and I've seen 800 V units (especially on switching ps's)  that barely weight 4 lbs.,   and b. because that doesn't take into account the other areas of design,  such as thermal control and vibration control.

7.  As for our Plitron unit,  it has been designed together with the top designers from Plitron.  Yes,  we've had complete access to them,  and they helped out tremendously.  The unit ended up being very large,  efficient,  and heavy at 8-9 lbs.

8. Finally,  as for our web site.  Read it again boys.  There's no claim as for performance superiority or even design superiority.  It simply ,  as intended by Sam Tellig in the first place,  points out that some amps out there that cost a lot of money weigh relatively little as to compared with less expensive $$$.  Solidity.  After all,  wouldn't you rather get more solidity for teh same $$$ than more plastic and lightweight ???   We have lots of metalk,  a heavy and large transformer,  and solid steel bottom plates in the amp,  and I'm very proud of the fact that we can offer all of this solidity for artound $ 1,000.  NEW !!!  Off the mark ???  Only if you're used to buy 20 lbs amps for several K's.  Where does all the money go then ???  Certainly not in the circuitry or ps,  more into the pockets of some other manufacturer.  AND,  I don't mean to imply that heavier amps automatically sound better.  Of course not.  And no,  Anton,  putting some pieces of electronics into a heavy case does not make a commercially viable product.  Ridiculous.

Bottom line is that there's a ton of value not just because of the 1 k price point for a Symphonic Line amp with 20 years of world wide (50 + countries)  heritage,  but also because I don't cut any corners and put an extra 30 % in my pocket by cheapening the parts quality.  Instead,  I'm always looking to pile on to the value of the amp.  If you don't understand this logic,  then you're completely off the mark indeed with any other industry (other than micro or nano industries,  of course) as far as solidity is concerned.  Even in the sportscar industry,  where weight is the enemy,  solidity is king.  Solidity in amp design is best achieved by solid and heavy materials,  within the design envelope.  Now,  if you can achieve that with a superb price / solidity  ratio,  then bravo !!!!!

Enough of this bs,

Klaus

rosconey

empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #14 on: 7 Oct 2003, 10:41 pm »
:o whoa klaus have a beer and relax :beer:
when i deal with people like that i just remind myself if i wanted to deal with assholes all day i would have become a toilet :mrgreen:

also can you send me stuff to put inside my monos there is too much empty space-oops its my head with the empty space -lol :scratch:

Chazz

empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #15 on: 8 Oct 2003, 12:30 am »
I read these posts a little bemused.

It reminded me of an article I wrote for my college newspaper on freedom of expression and racism a few years back - Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but be responsible for what you say.

On this topic, the real issue comes down to this:  Are the people purchasing the Odyssey amps satisfied?  Do they believe it to have value per pound?  I think the consensus is that most people believe it to be true (and yes, I do speak from experience, I am an owner of Stratos Monos and I am thinking of upgrading it to the Extremes)

Anton you are entitled to express an opinion.  Really.  Even ones about stereotyped Americans :)  

But you should really have owned a stratos or listened to it before making references to the value per pound ratio.  That would have given your view much more credence.  

Personally, I really love my big mono amps (All two chasis of it in my small flat) and the fact that they are big and heavy.  But if they sounded crap, they'd be sold in second.  And no, I am not an Amercan.  (if you want to know, I am a Korean born Aussie now living in Hong Kong)

Reasonsed and informed affirmation or critique always makes for a better discussion - even if it is on the inner spaces of a power amp!

Cheers
Charles

Anton K.

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empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #16 on: 8 Oct 2003, 07:40 am »
Good news for those who believe value of an amp = dollar-per-pound ratio!

There is new "current high-end heavyweight champion" - MB-100 monoblock (24 lbs) from IRD!
http://www.ird-thailand.com/products/mb100/mb100.htm

Even at retail price (USD 369) the ratio is 14.96 USD per pound, and at direct price (USD 269) it is as low as 11.21 USD per pound!!!

So I guess it is time to edit "value comparison" section of Odyssey homepage and fill it with Plitron custom-made transformers and internal wiring stuff Klaus has been talking here at AC about (which sounds quite convincing BTW).

And some quotes:

Only if you're used to buy 20 lbs amps for several K's. Where does all the money go then ??? Certainly not in the circuitry or ps
WHY NOT? AND WHAT ABOUT KNOW-HOW?

Bottom line is that there's a ton of value not just because of the 1 k price point for a Symphonic Line amp with 20 years of world wide (50 + countries) heritage, but also because I don't cut any corners and put an extra 30 % in my pocket by cheapening the parts quality.
HONESTLY, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT MAKING CHASSIS ONLY CHEAPER BY 30% WOULD BE NOTICEABLE ON BLIND TEST?
Instead, I'm always looking to pile on to the value of the amp.
OH YEAH, SURE YOU DO!  THEY ALL (SAY THEY) DO!
If you don't understand this logic, then you're completely off the mark indeed with any other industry (other than micro or nano industries, of course) as far as solidity is concerned. Even in the sportscar industry, where weight is the enemy, solidity is king.
WOW! WHAT A GENERALIZATION! ARE YOU FEELING THREATHENED?
IF "Throwing VA ratings of transformers in the ring as an absolute shows complete ignorance", THEN WHAT DOES THROWING SPORTSCARS IN THE RING SHOW?  

ALL IN ALL GOOD (ALBEIT A BIT "PUSHY") MARKETING EFFORT, BUT ITS PLACE IS AT THE HOMEPAGE INSTEAD OF "VALUE COMPARISON" SECTION  IN THE FIRST PLACE

And before new wave of "persecutions" rises on me, let me say it again:
I am not stating Odessey products do not represent FINE value (sound-per-pound). All i PRESUMED was that stereo Stratos did not represent THE FINEST value in audio.
I REALLY like Odyssey-s factory direct policy concept, because dealer's markup is often such a ripoff!

Anyway, I have really enjoyed reading all the replies. It was quite educating, taught me that i should choose better (milder) words in my posts, and showed that at times people can get overenthusiastic protecting their veiws (and incomes), so ultimately only your ears should decide.
But our common sense must still be there to show us the right direction.

Anton

klaus@odyssey

empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #17 on: 8 Oct 2003, 08:22 am »
Anton,

One more time before I'll ignore you:

What the hell are you talking about???????

Man,  other than trying to find any angle for putting me down here and insulting me,  did you really understand the concept here ???

Anyway,   bravo to IRD, of course,  and like I said,  please look at other amps.  There are many good ones out there, with which, I'm sure you'll be very happy with.

Good luck for your future audio odyssey,

Klaus

Anton K.

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empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #18 on: 8 Oct 2003, 10:04 am »
Come on, Klaus!

The fact that I disagree with you on one (!) point does not make me your enemy.
Did you notice, there were a couple of things I liked about Odyssey?

As with regard to
"Good luck for your future audio odyssey" - thanks.

Anton

MaxCast

empty spaces inside Stratos
« Reply #19 on: 8 Oct 2003, 11:05 am »
Quote
taught me that i should choose better (milder) words in my posts

Anton, print this and tape it to your computer screen.



Quote
And before new wave of "persecutions" rises on me, let me say it again:
I am not stating Odessey products do not represent FINE value (sound-per-pound). All i PRESUMED was that stereo Stratos did not represent THE FINEST value in audio.

Then why did you start this post?  Your post started out dissing the sound-per-pound statements on the Odyssey site.  
Lastly, you last sentence can be said of every component ever made.  Judging a product is subjective and will remain so.  I just hope you don't move on to another manufacturer with the same mentality.  Like I said before....no likie, no buyie.