[ricmon]

I recently acquired a pair of Telefunken ECC801S 12AT7 ECC81 for my TR7.  While waiting for them to arrive I rolled in a pair of Siemens ECC81's.  After several days of break in (10 hr.) I sat down for a listen.  The Siemens sounded good enough but something was not the same.  It was obvious the JJ's sounded way better than the Siemens.  No problem.  When the Telefunkens arrived in they went and after a few hours of warm up I began to listen.  Well, the Telefunken's delivered in spades and the TR7 sounds just lovely.  But something else hit me like a ton of bricks.  THE JJ's SOUND A LOT LIKE THE TELEFUNKENS.  More that there price would suggest or most audiophiles will admit.  The next time my TR7 needs some tubes I'm looking no further than JJ Teslas.  Except for the 550 Ultra which sounds amazing with the Siermen tri micas.

[Charles Calkins]

The JJ's were very unreliable in my T7. No problems since I switched to Siemens.

                                   Cheers
                                  Charlie

[Panelman]

Ricmon,


I have  diamond bottom Telefunkens in the phono stage of my T6 and while they did improve the sound over the Teslas they don't sound that much better than the stock tubes. Luckily I found the Telefunken's in an old Heathkit integrated my father had so I didn't have to pay for them.

[Listens2tubes]

In my T-8 the JJ's sounded fine until I replaced them with the Tele ECC801S tubes. I then realized how thin the highs had been. That and a bigger stage make the Tele's worth seeking.

[mark funk]

Ricmon,You most likely well never have to re tube again! Telefunken ECC801s are good for at least 10,000 hours, they are made of criptanite or some thing they last for ever. I have old used Telefunken ECC83s (12AX7) form the early 60s and I mean used for years and years and still sounding good in one of my Dyna Pas 3s and in my FM-3s. I have tried all of the new tubes made today and JJ sound about the best in Frank's stuff, but Telefunken they are not! But I think I mite hear more of a difference in my T-5 then you mite hear in your T-7. I think you need to listen a little longer, a lot of people don't like Telefunken because they are so uncolored or don't sound tubey. 801s work well in the 550 as well, but you should bias the amp for the tubes you are using, makes a lot of difference and should be done. Even with stock tubes Frank's stuff sounds good.

[Brett Buck]

The JJ's were very unreliable in my T7. No problems since I switched to Siemens.

   Interesting. I have been running JJs and sure enough, I have had two go over the hill in about three weeks. I thought it was just me. They still worked, more-or-less, but got noisy.

    BTW, you guys got me to thinking and after some scrounging from my stack of half-done projects, I now have no fewer than 5 diamond-bottom Telefunkens ECC83/12AX7's of varying degrees of use (some, A LOT). I found two that seemed to be pretty quiet and have been running  the for the last few hours in my Super PAS. As mentioned, the Telefunkens sound a lot like the JJs, and both of them sound a lot better than any of the others I have on hand to try (RCA, Sino). I can't say with this little use whether I think the Telefunkens are better and they do have A LOT of time on them, but it's not obviously better or worse. The others definitely were, took 30 seconds to hear they weren't as good. The JJs even look like direct copies physically.

    Point being, at current prices, you can buy a truckload of JJs and have them fail for what people are getting for NOS Telefunkens, and I don't think there's a huge difference in the sound. Eventually you'll get two JJs that make it through the infant mortality and then you'll be set.

      Brett

[martyo]

In my set-up with the Ultra 550 I preferred the NOS '60's triple mica Siemens. Bought 2 pair and figured I'd be set for quite a few years, they were pricey. Then the 801s showed up (thanks again Mark) and in my gear, they are superior to the Siemens, especially in bass definition and extension, dynamics, and clarity, especially in clarity, quite an improvement. I have a 2nd set of those too. After 20K hours or so I guess I'll end up back with the Siemens.

NOS 6N1P's on the way (thanks again and again Mark), 70's Russian military from the same plant they are currently being made in, will report back.

AND my Ultra 550 kicked butt even with the stock JJ's  

[BrianM]

People seem to be forming different opinions based on whether they tried Telefunkens in their preamp or their amp.

[twitch54]

FWIW, per Jim McShane, his latest batch of JJ's were certifiable junk !! Myself, I've had one experience....bad, even if you gave them to me I wouldn't sell them, that's what Tue. trash pick-up is for !

[gjs_cds]

Has anyone out there experimented with Groove Tubes?  They claim to be great clones of former designs...  While their market is in the audio performance industry, I've read a few positive reviews (here and there) from audiophiles stating that they're a great budget buy.

[mark funk]

From what I know about Groove Tubes, they are made in China, so I guess that means they are made by Sino. I have some Sino 12AX7 from the early 90s (came in an AVA Super Pas 3i) and they are not any thing to write home about. Martyo put a pair of my old Telefunken in and it was night and day. Telefunken hands down. I have heard that Groove Tube is or are going to have some one in the US make them some 6L6 tubes, I don't know if this has happend yet or not? I can't think of any one other then Western Electric (I think they only make a 300B tube) that are making tubes in the US any more?

[Brett Buck]

But something else hit me like a ton of bricks.  THE JJ's SOUND A LOT LIKE THE TELEFUNKENS.  More that there price would suggest or most audiophiles will admit.  The next time my TR7 needs some tubes I'm looking no further than JJ Teslas. 

     After spending a few days with the old Telefunkens, I would have to agree. Maybe my Telefunkens are just worn out, but they certainly aren't any better than the JJ's. I switched back and it was close to a wash, and if I had to pick I would pick the JJ's just based on the sound quality. Reliability may be another issue. Perhaps if I was willing to spring for *unused* Telefunkens it would be a different story, but that's not likely to happen unless I win the lottery.

    I have EH 12ax7's and JJ Ecc801s on the way, we'll see how that works out. Mostly, at this point I am recalling why I used to get driven crazy by tube equipment - too much magic involved. With transistors and op amps, you just turn them on and go, no maintainence, no muss, no fuss.


       Brett

[TjMV3]

Have you guys ever tried the new production Tung-Sol 12AX7,  in your gear?

I'd be interested in hearing the experiences of others,  with these tubes.

I for one have had some good results with these new Tung-Sol 12AX7,  in my pwn gear. 

Real nice tone,  a nice light touch of warmth and I've had no problems with reliability.

[martyo]

When I had the Super PAS 3i I tried most all of the currently made 12AX7 tubes. My impression of the Tung-Sol was a little different than yours. I didn't think it was very linear, fat sloppy bass, hot high end, and the midrange was definitely on the warm side. (reminded me of the old Son of Ampzilla  )
Of all the new production tubes I tried, Tung-Sol, Electro Harmonics, JJ's, Sovtek, and EI's, only the JJ's and Electro Harmonics were linear enough for me. I ended up running NOS RWN Neuhaus's until some used Telefunkens showed up in old Dyna FM3's. I'm talking about the line stage, not phono.

[ricmon]

I'll have to admit that the Telefunken's are bringing me a lot of pleasure.  They do have a lot more bass than the JJ's and tonally the Telefunken's have them beat.  All in all I think the Telefunken's are more fun to listen to music through. However I doubt if will spring for another pair of Telefunken's again.  Too dam costly. 

[mark funk]

Yes I know, Telefunken cost a lot and are hard to find good ones, one good thing, we are using 12AT7s (ECC801s or ECC81) and not 12AX7s (ECC83 I am not sure if there is an ECC803s?). Try to find some of them, if you do almost for sure they won't be NOS they well be used and still tell me how much? At least two or three times more! You know in Frank's Fet-Valve stuff like the T-7, the tube is working only half as hard as normal, just amplifying voltage and the Fet amplifies current, so by the time the 801s go bad who knows if you could find any more? I mean they last a long time! I wish I would have gone to the top of heap the first time, but it was fun trying all those differant tubes. So now I have a few $1,000 in NOS tubes and had to send my T-5 back to Frank when one of those (like I said before don't buy used tubes) old used 1955 Mullard's went up in a flash at took a regulator with it! Tube rolling can cost more then the price of the tubes! 

[jules]

I've had some success on ebay ... with the right sellers 

These look ok:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2-x-Telefunken-ECC801s-NOS-ecc801-ecc81-12AT7-NOS_W0QQitemZ300202453630QQihZ020QQcategoryZ67816QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m122

though I haven't bought anything from this person. In some ways ebay is a good way to buy tubes. The detailed photos provided are great and the feedback system is a guide to reliability ... most of the time  [I have been burnt once]

I'm using some recently bought NOS Telefunken E88CC valves  in an AKSA GK-1 and I reckon they are brilliant. If they seem expensive, they only cost about as much as a car tyre and even now they probably don't cost much more than they did [in relative terms] than when they were made. Valves were not cheap in the '50s!

jules

[BrianM]

Well, now that I've got these famous Telefunkens in my amp, too, I'd have to say they do win out over the JJs.  Maybe the results are somewhat different in the older model preamps people are talking about.  Are they worth the extra money?  Only if you're good (like me) at compartmentalizing and applying a double standard to both priorities and common sense.  The amp with the JJs sounds fantastic; with the Telefunkens I get a bit better transparency & resolution.  Does not fundamentally alter the character of the amp.  Both tubes seem quite linear to my ears.

Caveat: Larry at AVA reported he did not hear all that much difference after installing the Telefunkens for me.  He apparently had a somewhat different reaction to another owner's amp, same procedure.  So everyone's mileage may vary -- not to mention the tubes themselves.  I'm going to try some different ECC801S at some point to get an idea if there can be any significant variations.  But I'm pleased with the results from the NOS pair I scored.  At the very least, they're doing everything right.  As with any change, I plan to switch back to the JJs again after a week or two and reassess.

[BrianM]

Oh yeah: granted it's possible the rebiasing might have "unsettled" the JJs enough to make a direct comparison impracticable.  According to Frank, though, there was not much adjustment in my case, so either tube should work fine.

[Brett Buck]

As I mentioned earlier I was able to do some (completely subjective of course) listening with the Super PAS 2 (from Frank about a month ago) with various tubes. I have old Telefunken ECC83s, JJ ECC83s (new, short plate), Sino 12ax7s, EH 12ax7s, RCA 12ax7s, and JJ ECC803s. The power amp was a AVA U70, an AVA Omegastar 260EX, and a stock but perfect Dyna st-120. Speakers were B&W DM110is and B&W 803s. The sources were a Marantz CD5001 and a HK T-25 Turntable with a Grado Green with Longhorn.  I didn't go in and set the Phono termination to 10K, but just left it like it came (presumably 47K).
Obviously I didn't try every combination but it wasn't that hard to tell the difference between the tubes anyway.

    Sino and RCA - mediocre. The RCAs were old but had little use, and the Sinos were new matched pairs. Both had some noise and were really not in the game even with 30 seconds of listening. They were really bad in the phono section.

  JJ ECC803 - bad. Very quiet but just didn't seem to work very well. Almost everything had a metallic "ring" to it and it may have been marginally damped or marginally stable, or maybe it was microphonic (although a "tap test" didn't show that). Gain was noticeably lower than others. Might require circuit changes to work best but it didn't work in a Super PAS.

    JJ ECC83 - Very good. Very quiet, excellent linearity, excellent damping and definition - cheap
    EH 12ax7 - Very good, DEAD quiet, excellent linearity, very punchy/powerful sound, very high gain- cheap
    Telefunken ECC83 - Very good, not overly quiet and was marginally too noisy in the phono section. Worked very well in the line amp section, maybe slightly reduced definition - free because I already had them but expensive if you try to buy

     Right now I would have to say I would probably prefer the JJ ECC83, with either the Telefunkens or EH as a close second. The Telefunkens are old and maybe that's why they have a little more hiss and a little less gain as a result, but at least IMHO they aren't any better than the JJ or EH overall. I prefer the EH in the phono and the JJ in the Line positions.  The only problem I have had with the JJ is that I have had two (of four) go over the hill in the space of a month or so. That aside when they are working they work very well and either the EH or JJ is really cheap. The difference between the brands is so small that I am sure the unit-to-unit variation would swamp it.  From this experiment (which is hardly comprehensive) you are not losing out of you can't get Telefunkens and to be honest I would guess you could buy a stack of JJs for the same total and sort through them to get the best ones, and wind up better off. The sound quality is a wash even with the examples I have.  Who knows about the reliability, but I would be surprised if the JJ or EH were around and functional in 40 years like the Telefunkens. Just buy a bunch of spares.

    I would also note (like in the other thread) the Super PAS itself is outstanding. Of course it's dependent on the tube quality but it's as good as anything I have heard regardless of cost ($20,000 for a CJ? PT Barnum would have loved it). To be honest with you, I was more than a little surprised at how good is was. I figured Franks take on 12AX7 amps would be better than average, and a stock PAS 2/3 in good shape is a pretty decent preamp but I was blown away by how good the Super PAS is. Overall it's as good as the Omegastar although a little different here and there.

      Brett