What pre-amp (if any) are you using with your Sig 30.2?

dburna · « **on:** 21 Feb 2008, 07:45 pm »

Earlier this week, Zack (ZLS) stopped over my house and we were able to compare directly my Sig 30 to his Sig 30.2. Other than its creator, I didn't know how many people have had that opportunity. More on that in a separate note later in the week. aa

For now, the one thing I will say is that we used the RWA amps driven by an Altmann DAC direct, no pre-amp. I no longer have a pre-amp in my arsenal, but I came away convinced that a top-notch pre-amp would take the Sig 30.2 to another level. Don't ask me how, I just know.

I guess that's the whole point of Vinnie's upcoming Isabella pre-amp/DAC.

Sooooo, I wanted to solicit input from people who have used terrific pre-amps with their 30.2. What were your experiences? What pre-amps have you used? How did it sound with/without the pre-amp? And if you were able to use both tube & SS pre-amps, with which one did you have better results?

I'll leave this alone for now. I don't want to color anyone's responses. I have my guesses as to what would work best, but I'd rather hear from folks that have put this into practice. I will assert that the Sig 30.2 should acquit itself quite nicely with anything up to and including some of the finest pre-amps extant.

Thanks in advance for your input,

-dB (a unit measure of noise)

dspringham · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Feb 2008, 07:51 pm »

Did the Sig 30.2 (or your Sig 30) have the passive volume control or is it the power amp only version.?

Wondering if there is a difference between the integrated version versus the power amp version when run with an active pre.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Feb 2008, 07:53 pm »

I have the 70.2s with a Lamm LL2 Deluxe tubed pre. It's a supremely musical combination but well extended at the extremes with gobs of *real* detail. It leaves me wanting for literally nothing though I'm open to reconsider.

Mine are converted 70s, so have built-in volume. This feature is very useful gain-matching my hi-eff, subbed rig.

The way my system is set up right now I haven't been able to go sans preamp though I may be able to in the near future. I was able to run earlier generations of RWA amps (Clari-Ts and Sig. 70s) without a preamp and always preferred the euphonic, untruthful, colored lies they bring which make the event more realistic. Yes, I know that sounds like a conundrum.

dburna · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Feb 2008, 08:11 pm »

Both my Sig 30 and ZLS's 30.2 have the volume attenuator option. I haven't had the chance to listen to the RWA amps without one. Even when (not if) I upgrade, I will probably keep the attenuator in the amp for gain matching (my speakers are 96dB, so a pre-amp would barely have a chance to "get started" using a Sig 30.2 in my configuration unless the 30.2 had a volume attenuator).

Hey Mike, I guess you can ignore my latest PM to you. While you were penning your note, I was sending you a PM asking about the Lamm-RWA combo. Go figure....

-dB

JDK1 · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Feb 2008, 08:33 pm »

Hi all:
I can't answer completely, as my system is breaking in together now: I recently upgraded from standard Sig30 (as integrated, with direct input from sources) to full Sig30.2 and new Shindo Aurieges-MM. Given that, with the conversions, I've also added cables (top to bottom) and added dual Omega DeepHemps to my existing Omega XLS, everything is a different from before. But (when I forget to turn on the subs), the sounds do seem more "natural", flows, and the Omega's seem more relaxed, still fast and engaging, but not as hot on the top. Overall, I'm not much help here - but I did go the route of adding, and I feel that addition of quality pre-amp (like the Shindo or Mike's Lamm or Vinnie's upcoming Isabella) on top of the Sig30.2 brings out the best in all pieces.
- Jonathan

miklorsmith · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Feb 2008, 08:53 pm »

Quote from: dburna on 21 Feb 2008, 08:11 pm

Hey Mike, I guess you can ignore my latest PM to you. While you were penning your note, I was sending you a PM asking about the Lamm-RWA combo. Go figure....dB

Heh

OK!

TONEPUB · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Feb 2008, 09:46 am »

Im really enjoying mine with the Nagra PL-L.

kbuzz3 · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Feb 2008, 09:31 pm »

Quote from: miklorsmith on 21 Feb 2008, 07:53 pm

and always preferred the euphonic, untruthful, colored lies they bring which make the event more realistic. Yes, I know that sounds like a conundrum.

One of the best lines i have heard at any time on any audio board regarding the superiority of tubes, and tube pres in particular. WELL SAID! Say it out loud and say it proud.

In that spirit, i use a joule electra with my sig 30-love it

ZLS · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Feb 2008, 09:44 pm »

I was using a rebuilt Eico 84, but have lent it out. It did add warmth to the sound of the Sig 30.2. I am now running a Macbook straight into the 30.2(with volume control)

Yes, tubes lie; but they do it so well.

opnly bafld · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Feb 2008, 10:29 pm »

Quote from: ZLS on 22 Feb 2008, 09:44 pm

Yes, tubes lie; but they do it so well.

Not all tube designs, some tell the truth very well.

Lin

stevenkelby · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 Feb 2008, 01:03 am »

I was using my integrated 30.2 without a pre amp but felt I needed more gain on certain classical LPs so I hooked in my old Rotel RTC-940AX tuner/pre.

My current speakers are B&W DM604, they served me well for 10 years and have a big sound but are not the most revealing speakers. They are sold to a friend but I'm waiting for new speakers before saying goodbye to them.

It worked, SPL is now sufficient and I didn't notice any immediate damage to the sound quality. I haven't carefully compared the sound with and without the Rotel for the same SPL though, I certainly could but I was going to wait for new speakers before going crazy with testing, room treatment etc.

I have ordered a pair of Omega Super and Deeps, just have to be patient while Louis gets them finished. Then there are the new Alnicos Louis has available to consider too.

I can certainly see an Isabella in my future, especially the phono stage option.

-Richard- · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Feb 2008, 01:41 am »

I currently have Lloyd Peppard's Magic 5B Triplex (there are 3 circuit topologies to choose from) Line Preamplifier in front of my Signature 70.2 monoblock's, using the "classic Common-Cathode+Cathode Follower (CF)" circuit with a 20db gain (using 2-6R7G/GT tubes and one 12SN7GT). Lloyd modified the Magic 5 so that I can use more tube choices and there are state-of-the-art caps inside.

As my review suggests... this is a stunning combination that never fails to deliver the sonic magic we are all looking for... and there is no loss... please let me repeat this... there is no loss of the 3-D holographic musical presentation that SET amps are known for.

I suspect the Signature 70.2's are giving both Mike and myself even a bit more sonic authority (a fleshier ripper sound) then the Signature 30.2... although I have not heard them side by side.

Oh yes... I use my OB/Sig system to watch movies with... I can never overstate enough the extra dimension of filmic-thrills both Deb and I get from watching movies this way... I like having the volume controls on my Signature 70.2's because DVD's must be attenuated considerably more to achieve the same volume as CD's.

Warm Regards ~ Richard

dspringham · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Feb 2008, 02:45 am »

Richard,

I was thinking of picking up a Mapletree 2SE with which to feed my Sig 30.2 in the very hope that it would create that tube holography that I get with my Wyetech Labs SET monoblocks. I like the simplicity of Dr Lloyds designs and think it might add a bit of tonal "weight" with the octals along with that palpable airy presence. Would I be correct in assuming that the MAD pre's would be quick and incisive enough so as to not cause any adverse sonic "drag" on the Sig 30.2. Also wondering if the MAD's would tip the already warm sonic signature of the Sigs too much into the "overcooked" range.

Since I prefer remote volume control, I'm wondering how well this preamp might work by setting the preamp volume control at a fixed predetermined level and then using the remote volume control on the Sig 30.2 for variable volume adjustment.

Thanks in advance for comments,
David

-Richard- · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 Feb 2008, 04:28 am »

Hi David ~

All of your questions are well-thought out and incisive... I wonder what speakers you are using presently?

My Open Baffle speakers are not actually tilted into the "warm" region sonically... perhaps more along the lines of neutral... whatever that actually means.

My Magic 5 contains sophisticated well-reviewed caps and others "boutique" internal parts... Lloyd remembers what he used better than I do... whether they actually impact on the sound is not certain. However the circuit I am using is the tonally "fatest" sounding of the 2 tube circuits... it is that circuit that I feel helps the Signature 70.2 to achieve the rich tonal 3-D holographic sound I have written about.

But that is with my very fast and dynamic OB speakers... OB's have no "pressurized" inner cabinet air resistance to slow down the cones pistonic movements... the result is that OB's can translate the subtlest nuance of cone movement into the subtlest nuance of sound. Also the "fat" tone does not sound fat with my OB's... in fact it is remarkable how essentially neutral it sounds in spite of the rich and ripe tonal pallet.

So let's take your questions: "Would I be correct in assuming that the MAD pre's would be quick and incisive enough so as to not cause any adverse sonic "drag" on the Sig 30.2. Also wondering if the MAD's would tip the already warm sonic signature of the Sigs too much into the "overcooked" range?"

Here your speakers and ancillary equipment must be taken into consideration. The combination works for me... it would be wonderful if someone in your area could bring over their Magic 5B and you could both have a listen. However I realize that is not always possible. So for example... if with your speakers you found the tone of the combination of the Sig and 5B a bit too rich/fat for you... you could think about using a more neutral CD player/dac... perhaps even easier... you could use the alternate tube circuit of the 5B which is a bit less rich sounding (perfect for using with my SET 45 amp) the Shunt Reglated Push-Pull circuit... which uses 3 X 12SN7 GT tubes.

"Since I prefer remote volume control, I'm wondering how well this preamp might work by setting the preamp volume control at a fixed predetermined level and then using the remote volume control on the Sig 30.2 for variable volume adjustment?"

That sounds like a perfect way to go... I like to keep the attenuator on the Magic 5B around 12 or 12:30 for most room-filling listening... so I adjust the Signature 70.2's own attenuators to around 9:00 and then I play with those settings depending on my listening needs.

Let us know what your thinking is as you move more deeply into your decision process.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

dburna · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 Feb 2008, 05:02 pm »

Wow. Lamm, Shindo, Nagra, Mapletree, Joule-Electra. RWA gear traveling in some pretty heady company. I bet the amps sound great with any of those pre-amps. Of course, I'm pretty sure the Nagra is out of my price range, even used.....even beaten beyond recognition!

Well, this just means that the Isabella is going to have stiff competition from the gear within Vinnie's existing customer base. No problem -- as long as the "new" Isabella sounds as good as the "old" Isabella is cute/adorable, I envision a lot of high-end pre-amps on the market in a couple months. aa

-dB (a unit measure of sleepiness on a Sunday morning)

-Richard- · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 Feb 2008, 05:42 pm »

Oh yes, David... I forgot to mention... Steven Rayle who posts now and again on AC had both the Magic 5B and 2SE preamps from Mappletree and thought the Magic 5B was more dynamic... for Steven it rang more true to life. I purchased the 5B on his recommendation.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

Srajan Ebaen · « **Reply #16 on:** 25 Feb 2008, 11:07 am »

I'm running the 30.2 with attenuator with:

- Ancient Audio Lektor (Philips CDM-PRO2-based top loader with balanced silver DACs and 6H30 fully balanced output stage capable of 7V max output) direct into RWA
- Supratek Cabernet Dual in-between
- ModWright LS 36.5 in-between

The tube preamps add that intangible but obvious 3D and pulp thing - er, palpability. It's a bit obscene to stick $5000 to $8000 preamps to a $2500 amp but whatcha gonna do? That's why Vinnie's own Isabella could just be the hammer if it does a similar thing to those others (or the kind of machines other posters use). With 30dB of gain on the T chip, a preamp really needn't add a lot of gain (or any in my case) - just an extra infusion of current and color into the source signal...

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #17 on:** 25 Feb 2008, 02:34 pm »

This is another great thread!

Quote from: dburna

For now, the one thing I will say is that we used the RWA amps driven by an Altmann DAC direct, no pre-amp. I no longer have a pre-amp in my arsenal, but I came away convinced that a top-notch pre-amp would take the Sig 30.2 to another level. Don't ask me how, I just know. I guess that's the whole point of Vinnie's upcoming Isabella pre-amp/DAC.

Yes, the Isabella will take the 30.2 (or 70.2 monos) to the next level - I'd say the next levels! Isabella adds more dimensionality, PRaT, and "sweet n' juicyness" to the music... but without the hum and noise as Isabella is also off-the-grid.

I know I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again: The Isabella will be a perfect match with the 30.2 or 70.2s, but also a phenomial sounding preamp... period. Those of you with high-powered SS amp, low power tubed amps, and everything in between will find the Isabella to be very special to your listening experience.

Quote from: dspringham

Wondering if there is a difference between the integrated version versus the power amp version when run with an active pre.

Great question! The 30.2 with built-in volume has an input impedance of 20k. The 30.2 power amp and the 70.2 monoblock power amps have an input impedance of 100k. Many preamps will have no problem with driving a 20k load (and the Isabella will be fine with this as well). There are some preamps that have higher output impedances, and you might get better results using them with the power amp version (100k input impedance)... less loading of the preamp's output stage.

I have found that there are many preamps out there with LOTS of gain... too much IMHO! The 30.2 with built-in volume control makes it easier to match up with these kind of preamps. You simply set the volume attenuator on the 30.2 to a postion that allows you to obtain the most useable range of your preamp's volume control. I like 12 o'clock to be "average" listening level, and below that are the lower listening levels, and above that are louder listening levels.

Thanks for all your posts!

Vinnie

Loftprojection · « **Reply #18 on:** 25 Feb 2008, 02:47 pm »

Hey Vinnie, will the Isabella be perfectly matched to use with the 30.2 or 70.2 as power amp or better matched with the attenuator version? For one wanting to save a few hundred it might be a good deal to get a package amp/pre-amp in one shot without having to pay for the attenuator...

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #19 on:** 25 Feb 2008, 03:26 pm »

Quote from: Loftprojection on 25 Feb 2008, 02:47 pm

Hey Vinnie, will the Isabella be perfectly matched to use with the 30.2 or 70.2 as power amp or better matched with the attenuator version? For one wanting to save a few hundred it might be a good deal to get a package amp/pre-amp in one shot without having to pay for the attenuator...

Hi LP,

The Isabella will work perfectly with the 30.2 power amp and 70.2 monoblock power amps. However, if you have the 30.2 with built-in attenuator, the Isabella will work fine with this as well.

Best regards,

Vinnie