[pardales]

OK, so who's going to be the one to convert a disc from WAV to FLAC back to WAV back to FLAC etc a hundred (or more) times or so and do some bit-for-bit comparisons and listening sessions?

Seems like the more tech-savvy of you could whip up an automated system to do the conversions.

It'd be good ammo for one side the argument to show that the 1000th conversion is bit perfect and not audibly different.

-Mike

I don't think that's the point. I think the point is: do different file formats sound better, worse, different, same as one another, and, do aspects of the playback chain (computer/software/plug-ins) effect playback more or less so than file formats?

[TONEPUB]

While I'm curious about all this, I'm not that curious because hard disk space is so cheap these days.  We'll do our best to get to the bottom of this as time permits and both Chris and I have a lot of research to do.

I have a lot of files in Flac on my SOOLOOS and McIntosh servers and a mixture of Apple Lossless, MP3's and .wav files on my iMac music server. I honestly haven't been able to spend as much time as I'd like with this, so for now, I'm just saving files as .WAV until the controversy subsides.

Another thing I'd like to get to the bottom is the difference between an off the rack CD and a copy, at different speeds and with different discs.  Some have claimed the copy sounds better, others worse, while others no diff.

So, we'll keep investigating and discussing.

[The Computer Audiophile]

While I'm curious about all this, I'm not that curious because hard disk space is so cheap these days.  We'll do our best to get to the bottom of this as time permits and both Chris and I have a lot of research to do.

I have to agree with you on both statements Jeff.

[miklorsmith]

Jeff, on the question of copies and playback, have you seen the Gary Koh/Genesis white paper that kicked this off, it's been revised a few times:

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/White%20Paper%20on%20Black%20CDs%20ver%203.1.pdf

I built a system to do this, down to a Plextor ripping drive and Yamaha 4x burner.  I have about 4 different types of black discs and use them for most of my burns.  I was lucky enough to meet up with Mr. Koh at his factory in Seattle where he demonstrated a $45k pair of speakers in a literal warehouse.  The sound was utterly amazing and he took the opportunity to demonstrate original vs. different black CD copies.  Not only were the copies better, but the copies were significantly different from each other.  Gary said the only difference was the physical medium - burn parameters were identical.

When I was using these I was convinced of their superiority.  The logic is pretty simple - it's easier for a ROM drive to take its time via EAC to get the imperfect CD surface read correctly, then deposit the bits "better" to a clean copy vs. the physical pressing problems that original CDs have.

Of course the problem of creating a logical construct is that expectations are born.  It's fully possible all that I heard were illusions, based on what my logical brain instructed.  However, IF you follow that logic and IF you continue that logic the question becomes "why have any real-time reading of a physical medium at all".  Even if the burned disc is a "better" middleman, it is still an extra step that is no longer needed.

This leap led me to the server concept where most of my listening has been centered for a couple of years now.

All that said, my clock-linked Rega-Lessloss combo is freakin' sweet - even with original CDs.   

[marklivia]

Miklorsmith, great link to that paper. Boy, that guy is seriously motivated! I think I'll try some of the Colorado Mitsui discs ..... Are there any of the black ones that are supposed to last more than a few years?

[miklorsmith]

The Mitsui discs are expensive, about $.85 ea.  They're a gold ink but are archival quality, supposedly 100 years.  None of the black ones I know about are any better than standard cd-r longevity but Memorex ones are widely available and only about $.20 ea.  When they quit playing, just burn new ones off your drive.

[marklivia]

The down side to that logic is that as they deteriorate you slowly lose quality. (he showed a graph in the article of a disc going slowly south). I think I'll try the Mitsui. Where do you see them for .85c ?

[miklorsmith]

I think CD Dimensions is where I bought mine, but that was a few years back.  It seems they're $1.04 ea now, in packs of 100:

http://www.cddimensions.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MAM%2DR74TGG%2DCB

There may be better deals elsewhere.  They say 300 year archival life, which is better than what I remembered.   

[Jon L]

so for now, I'm just saving files as .WAV until the controversy subsides.

This would be my recommendation, too, EXCEPT there is a huge elephant in the room with .wav files:  tags are not preserved. 

When one has a gazillion songs without tags, the world can be a very, VERY cruel place 

[Crimson]

so for now, I'm just saving files as .WAV until the controversy subsides.

This would be my recommendation, too, EXCEPT there is a huge elephant in the room with .wav files:  tags are not preserved. 

When one has a gazillion songs without tags, the world can be a very, VERY cruel place 

Really? 

[BradJudy]

You can also get long-life "archival" grade CD-R and DVD-R made by MAM-A (http://www.mam-a.com/) either direct or through places like this: http://www.datamediastore.com/mam-a.html

NIST did a study on the stability of optical media for government data archival here: http://www.itl.nist.gov/iad/894.05/docs/StabilityStudy.pdf

Which basically backs up MAM-A and Mitsui's general claim that the dye type is the most critical element (followed by the use of a silver/gold alloy reflective surface) and that phthalocyanine dye was the best choice. 

Notice that one of their measurement criteria is jitter. 

[Geardaddy]

vdm, since you have a background in "digital signal processing," maybe you can answer a few questions I generated on two channel and computer servers: 

After reading several reviews of the Nova Physics Memory Player, several questions come to mind which you gurus can take a crack at:

1.  To get at all the data residing on a CD, Mark turned to a process he calls "Read Until Right," or RUR.  Well, simply using the EAC solves that problem (and cheaply)

2.  Mark's next step is to get rid of the data that have to do with the Reed-Solomon Error Correction Code (RS-ECC).    ??  Is this relevant and if so, what if any shareware exists to make this correction?

3.  The last piece of the MP process is the flash memory. As data, using the RUR process, is retrieved it is stored in an electronic, or flash, memory and not on a hard drive. In his investigations, Mark discovered that data read from a hard drive directly will exhibit higher levels of jitter. If however, the data is retrieved from a flash memory, it is far less tainted and practically jitter-free.  Okay, but don't most DACs deal effectively with jitter and to what degree is this necessary sonically?  And if so, how does one bypass HD storage in favor of flash memory...  Anyway, what is irritating about this particular review is that he was using various DACs as well!   Furthermore, the player does not come with a good remote but a laptop.  Rrrrr...

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue28/novaphysics_memoryplayer.htm

[Geardaddy]

vdm, here is one response to question #2:

2.  Mark's next step is to get rid of the data that have to do with the Reed-Solomon Error Correction Code (RS-ECC).    ??  Is this relevant and if so, what if any shareware exists to make this correction?

To answer the last part of the puzzle: I believe this a red herring. There are 1 and 0s which were burned on to the disc to begin with, and those 1 and 0s can be read reliably and repeatably by computer-based error detection and correction software and firmware, as has been discussed. So finding a better way to deal with error correction codes on the disc itself - assuming NP have done this - is an academic exercise at most. I believe it doesn't achieve a better result.
Darren

Do you agree with this statement?

[mfsoa]

I thought the last thing that CDs had was "1s and 0s which were burned onto the discs..."

Aren't there actually 8 or 9 different lengths of pits and the player must determine the exact length of each pit, and then the math kicks in to figure out what the stream of 1s and 0s is?

So it seems to me that the reading of the data is a very analog-like process, with timing and pit-shape being critical.

Seems to make sense that playback that does not rely on such could sound different to a plain old CD player.

Obviously not my area of knowledge, but I think the acknowledgement that there are not simply 1s and 0s, or "Ons" and "Offs" being read off the disc, but instead this very analog-like time-based determination of exact pit lengths that needs to be done opens the possibility that other forms of data storage, retrieval, error correction (even green markers and magic polishes) etc. can influence the ultimate sound quality.

-Mike

[Geardaddy]

That seems logical to me Mike.  I think there is a lot more to this meets the eye....much like the whole cable realm....