15" is good...what about 18"?

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navin

Re: 15" is good...what about 18"?
« Reply #40 on: 22 Feb 2008, 07:40 am »
Note that in MJK's latest article he frankly states that he had painted himself into a corner (on the huge double 15 OB) the very moment he chose a sensitive lowther driver.  In his second OB opus he went with a better matched Fostex and was plenty happy with the results + improved footprint/SAF.

this article?
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project07/Project07.html

I dont see any mention of the baffle dimensions of the 167 +  Daytom/Eminence system.

nodiak

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Re: 15" is good...what about 18"?
« Reply #41 on: 22 Feb 2008, 04:19 pm »
Deleted my earlier post to Bob, too crabby with the flu. We were coming from different angles and not communicating well. We worked it out with pm's. Sorry to affect the thread.

This getting 35 hz without a box is super interesting. I hope a few drivers are found that do it with the good tightness your after Michael. I know I love how a good bass set up puts out the slap of Marcus Miller, etc. U frames seem a good direction too.
Don 

scorpion

Re: 15" is good...what about 18"?
« Reply #42 on: 22 Feb 2008, 06:24 pm »
Michael,

Hear are two simulations of Warrior 18 with Martin J King's MathCad models.
Both are taken on an OB 54 inches wide and 24 inches high (could also include wings), the element is situated in the middke of the baffle with center 10 inches above floor. Element is crossed over low-pass at 150 Hz 2nd order Linkwitz-Riley.

The first simu is with element as is, the second with altered Qes to give a Qts value of 1.35 and a lower Bl-factor accomplished with a 6 ohm resistor in series with the speaker.
Impulse responses are identical. I think the adjusted Warrior would mate perfectly with B200 high-passed at 200 Hz. Simus (1 watt power) speak for themselves:



/Erling
« Last Edit: 23 Feb 2008, 01:20 am by scorpion »

tubamark

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Re: 15" is good...what about 18"?
« Reply #43 on: 22 Feb 2008, 07:02 pm »
Note that in MJK's latest article he frankly states that he had painted himself into a corner (on the huge double 15 OB) the very moment he chose a sensitive lowther driver.  In his second OB opus he went with a better matched Fostex and was plenty happy with the results + improved footprint/SAF.

this article?
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project07/Project07.html

I dont see any mention of the baffle dimensions of the 167 +  Daytom/Eminence system.

Back thru his homepage --> OB articles --> 2 way passive OB to:
http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/OB_Design.pdf

Side note:  if doing a passive system, it is very important to determine if driver sensitivity rating was done with input of 2.83V or the misleading "1 watt" input;  "1 watt" is only fair if both drivers have absolutely identical impedance curves, which they won't.   2.83V is the only fair way to compare drivers.    2.83V at exactly 8 Ohms is the only time that 2.83V = 1 watt.

tubamark

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Re: 15" is good...what about 18"?
« Reply #44 on: 22 Feb 2008, 08:24 pm »

Fair enough, but I'm willing to give on size to get that last octave or so.  Thanks for the mention of MJK's article on dual 15's, I'll have to read about that design.

Sensitivity is very important to me- so much so that padding down the B200 would be criminal.

I'm curious about the side-firing 15s on a U (is that still a U, by the way?) - are you aware of any implementations?

Yes - have implemented; 'can post photos when I get some time.  Also have done a variation on the implementation that places woofers at 90 deg on adjacent sides of a cube, with rear opening on the opposite corner. (Picture would be worth 1,000 words here)

The side-firing one functions just like a shallow U-frame, but with vibration reduction, and maximum displacement for a given box size.  Call it a T-frame if you like, but it is functionally just a U-frame.
Remember that any (sub)woofers on small baffle/box is omnidirectional until it encounters something that makes it behave any different.  In this case the side woofers provide the front hemisphere. and the rear opening -- provides roughly equal-but-opposite displacement on the rear hemisphere behind the box.  Remember: The rear radiation would be perfectly omnidirectional too, were it to never encounter the front wave.
All this holds true until wavelengths are short enough to "see" the box/baffle.

The rear dipole hole described previously is optional. If used, it should be off-center a little.  It serves to lengthen the front-rear distance, to slightly increase driver loading, and to randomize front-to-rear path lenghts a little more - which, along with stuffing, reduces the dipole peak by a couple db.

Nulls are roughly paralell with the plane of the rear opening (just like a regular U-frame).  As is, distance from woofer center to rear opening is short, so functions as a shallow U-frame, easily usable to 200 Hz if 2nd or higher order XO used.   If extended and heavily stuffed, can become cardioid Like John K prescribes.

While total box vibration is mitigated, you will still get some vibration from air pressure; Needs same strengh of enclosure as if building sealed box for same drivers.  loose stuffing can blast outta there like a canon - may need a net or screen.

When compared to a 'regular' U-frame:
Pros:  Double displacement potential for a given frame size;  Vibration control;  4 ohm net impedance (assuming 8 ohm drivers);  Visual appeal of a plain front panel
Cons: Cannot place flat against sidewall (does work well very close to wall at 45 deg, however);  Gotta have more drivers (hey, you always get a price break at qty 4);  Displacement could kill any pets that nap inside the box (see my avatar);  Not a super-pure symetrical dipole (No U-frame is).  May be better or worse for your tastes and room than a flat baffle

And before anyone asks: yes, you chest-thumpers can even do 3 drivers per frame in this configuration (left, front, right), but resulting impedance is too low for most amplifiers, and vibration control is not as good either. I would definitely not use the dipole-hole exit if using 3 drivers.

For reference, Sd (piston area) of a typical 15" driver is ~133 sq";  A 15" x 15" opening is 225 sq in - ~= to two 15" woofers.
A typical 10" driver ~ 50 sq in
A typical 12" driver ~ 75 sq in

Of course, all the above is possible w/18's, but you can get the same bass extension with 15's or 12's.

'Hope this helps,

-- Mark aka Tubamark
« Last Edit: 22 Feb 2008, 08:59 pm by tubamark »

JoshK

Re: 15" is good...what about 18"?
« Reply #45 on: 23 Feb 2008, 03:04 am »
Hey you OB'ites.... check this bass implementation out...





thread

just in case you were wondering, those are 3 18"s. 

SET Man

Re: 15" is good...what about 18"?
« Reply #46 on: 23 Feb 2008, 03:09 am »
Hey!

  WOW! :o

  Now checked out his completed speaker set!



  I think you might be able to recreate that Maxell's poster ad in his room now :lol:

   Pretty amazing project. I wonder how they sound  :scratch:

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:

navin

Re: 15" is good...what about 18"?
« Reply #47 on: 23 Feb 2008, 06:24 am »
Also have done a variation on the implementation that places woofers at 90 deg on adjacent sides of a cube, with rear opening on the opposite corner. (Picture would be worth 1,000 words here)

The side-firing one functions just like a shallow U-frame, but with vibration reduction, and maximum displacement for a given box size.  Call it a T-frame if you like, but it is functionally just a U-frame.

does this look like 2 ripoles face to face? see post 1 here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108497&highlight=

nodiak

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Re: 15" is good...what about 18"?
« Reply #48 on: 23 Feb 2008, 03:36 pm »
That's really great, makes me miss my old 24 x 30 x12 room where I could play like that. Seems they could also be mounted on the wall for ~ IB/lower fs, then a single 18" with Oris and tweeter for mains - but I realize it's unlikely they'll start cutting the house up...
magnetar has some nice stuff going on at diyaudio too. His Lil Buddy system looks good.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116871&highlight=Lil+Buddy
diyaudio search: Lil Buddy - magnetar
Don

mcgsxr

Re: 15" is good...what about 18"?
« Reply #49 on: 23 Feb 2008, 04:31 pm »
6x18's for bass, that sounds about right to me... WOW!    aa

Brad

Re: 15" is good...what about 18"?
« Reply #50 on: 23 Feb 2008, 04:39 pm »
I like how the speakers DWARF that relatively large TV :thumb:

tubamark

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  • Posts: 55
Re: 15" is good...what about 18"?
« Reply #51 on: 26 Feb 2008, 03:52 am »
Also have done a variation on the implementation that places woofers at 90 deg on adjacent sides of a cube, with rear opening on the opposite corner. (Picture would be worth 1,000 words here)

The side-firing one functions just like a shallow U-frame, but with vibration reduction, and maximum displacement for a given box size.  Call it a T-frame if you like, but it is functionally just a U-frame.

does this look like 2 ripoles face to face? see post 1 here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108497&highlight=

'Not that complicated.
The alignments I'm describing have the cones showing on the exterior sides of the box, magnets toward each other inside the box.  Electrically and mechanically phased the same.
Hope this  makes sense . . . I'm not hip on how to post sketches . . . will attempt photo(s) if I ever get the time . .
-- Mark