Lorelei vs. North Creek Music Borealis

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scottpretti

9500
« Reply #20 on: 23 Oct 2003, 12:00 am »
The 9500 in my OkaraII are so pleasing to my ear, I can listen for hours without strain.  Best way to describe it would be natural, things sound like they are supposed to.  In the Okaras, the 9500 is crossed over at 1800.   I think, the same in the Borealis.  This IMHO is what sets the ScanSpeak drivers ahead of the pack, the ability to crossover this low leads to smother transition from tweeter to midbass.  Take alook at my cabinets for the Okaras, they are as solid as a brick s&!t house.  Look at the xovers, hand wound inductors.  I enjoy music but I love value!!!!  

http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=503

http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=993

http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=994

MarkgM

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Lorelei vs. North Creek Music Borealis
« Reply #21 on: 26 Oct 2003, 07:59 pm »
Same drivers - what's the difference?  Oh krikies, there's no way to tell.  Some statements can be made based upon driver selection, but a passive speaker system is a system - cabinet, x/o, drivers, and design.  Do these guys use the same port size or tuning frequency, do they have the same baffle width?  No.

I've no doubt the Loreleis are as great as their owners say they are, to them.  A speakers sound is sooooo personal.  I own a pair of Borealis speakers, and they are very accurate.  They cannot cause fatigue from the treble - no way, that treble is great.  It would be nice to be able to compare in person.  Again, these are speakers, so you have to hear them in person to know what you're dealing with.

I mean, how many speakers use these drivers?  Check the kits at Speaker City, and a number of high-end retailers.  You'll see the same woofers used in Wilsons.  etcetera ectetera.  

I would only guess their sound is the same if the designers are both after the same subjective response, and I would love to make a comparison (before I sell them, of course - everything must go!).  I'm in Raleigh, NC.

satfrat

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Lorelei vs. North Creek Music Borealis
« Reply #22 on: 26 Oct 2003, 09:24 pm »
I totally agree with what your saying Mark, EVERYTHING in audio is system/individual subjective. To audition is the only way to satisy one's preferences. I've stated my preferences all tho I haven't auditioned near as many loudspeakers as I would have liked to, the Lorelei's do for me what I like the most,,, huge soundstage with incredible depth and reasonable accuracy, in a floorstanding configuration that produces VERY DEEP bass from midbass driver.  As much as I would have liked to compare speakers, I don't have those resources available to me. But I did have the satisfaction of knowing that when I ordered the Lorelei's, I had a 30 day money back guarentee in the unlikely chance that they weren't to my liking. It's a nice safety net to have when buying online, sight/ sound unseen & unheard. North Creek doesn't give this option unfortunately but I wasn't looking for total accuracy or a stand monitor anyways so the Borealis wasn't even an option for me. I hope your able to audition a set of Lorelei's sometime Mark, I think you might be impressed with the emotional involvement that they bring to the table. Enjoy the music! :D  Regards, Robin

MarkgM

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Lorelei vs. North Creek Music Borealis
« Reply #23 on: 27 Oct 2003, 12:08 am »
Well, FOOBY.  You're up there in my neck of the woods (well, initially, I'm in the flatlands now).  Who knows, maybe I could trot up there and we could have a face-off?  I like the way you're talking, too.  A speaker should give emotional involvement.  If you're saying that the Loreleis give a healthy bass reponse, I would guess these two speaks have gone in respectably different directions.  I think heft in the bottom end makes a big difference in the overall impact.  The Borealis is made to be mated with a sub.  I have another pair of speakers that noone here has heard I'm sure.  Very emotionally involving, come to find, strongest in the ballpark of 40 hertz.  Big, 8" midwoofers, seems it would be a shame to x/o into a sub, but I have also come to find the roll off is pretty steep starting around 37 Hertz in my livingroom.  I would not have guessed.

When I'm on battle.net, they call me the GREEN MOUNTAIN BOYS.  I've got family all over the place up there.  A wee bit more than I should?  hmmmm.  Ayuh, that's a Vermont joke.

hehehe

satfrat

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Lorelei vs. North Creek Music Borealis
« Reply #24 on: 27 Oct 2003, 12:53 am »
Sounds like you have an active libido Mark, btw, what the hell is FOOBY? An inquiring mind would like to know. Klaus told me early on that the Lorelei's don't require a subwoofer abd this is truely a fact. His specs have the bass listed as going down to 32hz but the 6moons review mentioned it was more like 25hz,,,,, I agree with 6moons. The bass goes downtown with the Lorelei and with it's wide dispersion requires very little toe-in. I'm not a 2 channel fan and I think the Nemisis center speaker is very musical and blends in vocally with the Lorelei's. Still?, I find myself listening to the Lorelei's alone/allot in stereo when the volume is loud (100+db) because of it expansive soundstage that wraps the music around you so tight that you'd swear there was another pair behind you (which I have :)). There is nothing that I would enjoy doing more (almost) than entertaining you and the Borealis in a friendly shootout. Keep it in mind if your ever up and around or just stop in and say hi and take a listen for yourself. I'd love to have you over. :D Regards, Robin

MarkgM

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Lorelei vs. North Creek Music Borealis
« Reply #25 on: 27 Oct 2003, 04:39 am »
Thank you.  I'm taking the active labido thing as both a compliment and a surprise.  I don't think the North Creeks are going to be around long enough to take you up on the offer, but....

I don't think these aren't the same woofers!  I looked at the 6moons review - the Lorelies use the 6.8" scanspeak woofers, the Borealis uses the 5.5" woofers.  Little bit of a difference there.  

If Klaus may recall, this is the kind of design I was asking him about, like, well, more than a year ago.  I've tried comparing full ranges to monitors before, and I don't think it's generally a good idea.  The Borealis' by design are meant to go with a sub for folks who want the low bass response.

Edit:
Oh, FOOBY, that's an exclamation.

byteme

Lorelei vs. North Creek Music Borealis
« Reply #26 on: 27 Oct 2003, 05:03 am »
Quote from: MarkgM
I don't think these aren't the same woofers!  I looked at the 6moons review - the Lorelies use the 6.8" scanspeak woofers, the Borealis uses the 5.5" woofers.  Little bit of a difference there.
...


Everything I've read indicates that they are the same:

6Moons - Carefully removing the mid-woofer from the enclosure for a candid look-see confirmed it to be the Scanspeak 18W/8545-00

NCMS Site - Borealis 9500 Unlimited Project Consists of "soft matched" 18W/8545

According to Madisound and Danish Sound Technology there is only one 18W-8545

satfrat

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Lorelei vs. North Creek Music Borealis
« Reply #27 on: 27 Oct 2003, 05:08 am »
Just to clarify, you were talking about having family up here, a wee more than you should, hmmm. I took this you sowing your oats here and reaping a banner harvest. A little toomuch reading between the lines on my part? Those labido jabs usually get a laugh, if the other guy know where your coming from. :lol: More clarification,,, if the Borealis uses the Scan 8545 (which I think it does), then it's the same mid-bass driver as the Lorelei. But you say the driver is only 5.5" so it can't be a 8545, can it? So your thinking of moving on from the Borealis heh, any thoughts on the direction you might be taking. I had my last pair of speakers 18 years so I'll probably be rocking to death with the Lorelei's. Life is good,,,,, better than good! Regards, Robin

MarkgM

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Lorelei vs. North Creek Music Borealis
« Reply #28 on: 27 Oct 2003, 05:43 am »
Okey dokey.  I had it recorded in my head there were 5.5" drivers.  How am I supposed to measure that?  Well, with a tape ruler, and you is right!  Ok, that's twice as stupid in one day.  3 times a charm?  Now I also remember Klaus on the phone.  He's saying "7" drivers", and I'm going yeah, and then later my brain has 5.5" drivers in my head, what a mess.  I'm sorry.

MarkgM

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Lorelei vs. North Creek Music Borealis
« Reply #29 on: 27 Oct 2003, 06:26 am »
Robin, that was a pretty obscure direciton on my part, I have to admit.  I was thinking local history, notable degree of cultural isolation, one or two linear-style family trees.

Moving on?  No.  I'm moving out.  I'm selling my gear.  How about you provide the stereo, and I'll chop the firewood? :-)  hehe

MarkgM

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Lorelei vs. North Creek Music Borealis
« Reply #30 on: 27 Oct 2003, 09:01 am »
Ok, here's what I consider the first-most important paragraph from what the reviewer said at 6moons.

Quote
Even when spread 10' apart, center fill neither collapsed nor thinned out, allowing for the projection of a truly wide screen soundstage - without annoying black bars. Where the Loreleis made minor concessions to common sense? In the last word of midrange transparency. It's something that'd occur to you as nearly a given when considering that a 7-inch driver performs double-duty for extreme low bass and vocals. Accordingly, the Loreleis frolicked on the warm side of neutral. Capable of higher-than-good-for-you decibels without obvious compression or nastiness, they reminded me of the nOrh SM6.9s in their feisty mien, but with a more lit-up treble than the implementation of Vifa's ring radiator in the Thai drums manages. That latter ingredient is vital to Rolf Gemein's design. Without it, the bass prowess of these towers would nearly be too much of a good thing. As it stands, he strikes a judicious balance of control and bloom; midrange communicativeness and tonal density. He then adds a sparkly top for apparent speed and openess which counteract the weight from the lower midrange on down.  


Here it's looking like a straightforward explanation of the use of the ring tweeter.  From my perspective, I'm thinking that if you're going to increase the bass output, and somehow through it all, also increase the efficiency, you need to add coorespondingly more output on the tweeter end.  So however it is, so that they balance.  And I think that a speaker is a system, and it has to come together.  I'm not referring to amp & CDP here, I mean the parts that the speaker is made of.  

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Lot's of things I like to hear.  I don't doubt also the mention of the warmth of the sound, but the reviewer's habits are also described as with high-efficiency horns, which tend to give a very dynamic kick.  These scanspeak drivers, perhaps with exception to the ring tweeter, I think tend to be warm sounding compared to that kind of experience, but also some folks just say, "huh?  What'd'yah mean? They sound like all the other passive electrodynamics" yadda yadda.
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And then there's the matter of phase coherence from various positions.  Not really complimentary on that score, (and not alot to say):
Quote
Directly on-axis, the extreme treble was slightly emphasized but quickly remedied by facing the boxes straight out.


So these tweeters are a little more directional than the 9500s I would have to guess, and also not possibly phase coherent from 0 to 40 degrees.  What speaker is, really?   While we're at it, they're all screwing at least 4 or 5 things up, they don't have a choice.  We're not listening to 100,000 point sources each the size of a molecule.

Well, George Short never chased after the bottom octave with his designs, insisting the person go after a separate sub to complete the frequency range, even with the dual 8545s of the NCMS Rhythms.  There are some designers who just won't do it.  And I was egging Klaus, "go get 8 inch drivers, man".  Meanwhile, I also have some speakers with 8" Vifa midwoofers, the lesser-than-scanspeak name brand, and they are not warm-sounding like the thick paper scanspeaks, but some folks would just say they like something about them better.  They're light, they're high-thrust with a good range of travel, and there's nothing but a series x/o - 2 coils, 2 caps, one limiting resistor on the high-pass, and they've got quite a kick!  Check out the writings of Roy Johnson of Green Mountain Audio some time.  There's one fat thread at audiogon in particular:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1032037028&read&keyw&zzroy=johnson
For phase coherence, I don't think he would use a driver of that diamter to produce low bass.  In his own words, the diameter and the surface area don't come into direct contact with enough air.  Then again, maybe he's an idiot, albeit a highly respected one, but he's going after the holy grail of sound, God bless him if he finds it, I'm sure he'll be the first.  The next point he would make would be to say that phase coherence isn't going to hold when you get outside the ballpark of a driver's diamter across the frequencies that driver is responsible for, and where that is first going to show up is off-axis repsonse.  Well, I'm trying to quote as best I remeber all I;veread fomr the guy.
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All in all, I'd like to bust things up just a bit, and say that if you've got 18 years on one pair of speakers (did you get them re-coned along the way?) and your second pair of speakers are the greatest thing in your experience, that maybe theres ways of opening this up into a more subjective field, something that has some room for play.  I'm happy to be real curious about the sound of the Loreleis at this point, like short short list and all, and for giving them an honest listen.  Can you send me a pair for a little while and I'll send them back to you?  Ok, I'm kidding, I'd be having troubles driving them.  But I would also say keep an open mind, there's more than one way to skin a cat.  I get the feeling the 6moons review describes the kind of balance Rolf was after really well, it makes sense to me, and I thnk it sounds really cool what he's after.

And on a note I mentioned earlier, comparing these two may provide information, but I don't guess it would work very well.  I've tried something like that, and as it turned out I didn't end up with such a high personal appreciation of myself for the comparison I made.  I find it difficult to compare speakers with different frequency responses.  Maybe it would be easier to couple the Borealis with a sub to compare against this full-range offering.

I don't think it's then end-all of reviews, for sure, but I like it.  I didn't hear any mention of time coherency there, or really any specific talk about transient attack or dynamics, did I miss something on that?  I've heard time coherency come up here somewhere.  Any elaborations on the matter?

btw: thanks for all your time, I guess that one got a little windy.