[Jay S]

What counts with me is performance with redbook CD and, secondarily SACD.  Video performance is not a priority... am still using a 4 year old Toshiba dvd player!

[Ears]

What is macro blocking?

Go to www.avsforum.com and look in the dvd player section under several 5900 threads to read all about macro blocking and the transport gears grinding/player lockup ect.

I saw the macro blocking in several movies and this seems to be a problem whith dlp projectors and other digital tv's.

When my 5900 locked up and started grinding the transport gears, it was an SA-CD that had played perfectly well earlier in the player and it was not because the disc was not seated properly, but rather a problem in the 5900's transport/design.

A 2k player should not have any of these problems so beware of anyone trying to justify them in any way.

[Dokter_doug]

From what I can tell (and from browsing other threads on other forums) macro blocking is an ENCODING problem, not a DECODING problem, and is not confined to the Denon 5900. Could it just not be the case that, as with any good playback unit, the deficiencies in the source material become more apparent?

The grinding and locking up seems to be another matter all together.

[Ears]

From what I can tell (and from browsing other threads on other forums) macro blocking is an ENCODING problem, not a DECODING problem, and is not confined to the Denon 5900. Could it just not be the case that, as with any good playback unit, the deficiencies in the source material become more apparent?

The grinding and locking up seems to be another matter all together.

Yes I suppose it could but were talking movies that anyone who buys the 5900 is likely to own.
Don't let anyone tell you that it is limited to a few movies.... I clearly saw the macro blocking on at least 20% of the movies whith dark scenes which is way too many movies to have macro blocking, The 5900's great video on the other supposed non defective discs is great.

All i can say is give it a try and see for yourself if you can live whith the macro blocking that completely ruins any movie it shows up on.

I have tried 3-4 other players whith all or most of the same discs whith no macro blocking in any of the movies.

[levesque]

So Ears.

You are telling us that the people doing the shoot-out at Secrets don't know how to do their jobs?

[Ears]

So Ears.

You are telling us that the people doing the shoot-out at Secrets don't know how to do their jobs?

Lets put it this way...the Denon 1600 is just a decent dvd video player yet it is highly rated at Secrets and I do NOT agree whith there high ranking of this  player.
They rate it much higher than it should be as compared to others I have tried.

Secrets is supposed to be used as a guideline and not as a marketing tool or reccomendation but they seem like ALL marketing to me on the AVS forum.

They said they saw the same macro blocking on a player that costs many thousands more which hardly anyone owns. and nobody has confirmed this.

Lets here about macro blocking that happens on real world players that cost as much or less as the 5900 does.

Whether the discs are the problem whith the 5900 or the player is not even the point.
I could NOT live whith the macro blocking that completely ruins movies no matter what causes the macro blocking and it seems as if Secrets is trying to downplay the macro blocking issue.

Bottom line is if you spend 2k on a dvd player it had better do a good job of producing a great picture on all movies including those whith a lot of dark scenes which the 5900 clearly does not do.
Blaming this on the software,even if true, does not make any difference to me and a lot of others who brought back there 5900.


If this were a much cheaper video only player, I could see using it on some movies and another less revealing player for movies whith dark scenes, but the 5900 is anything but cheap.

[levesque]

''Secrets is supposed to be used as a guideline and not as a marketing tool or reccomendation but they seem like ALL marketing to me on the AVS forum.''

Wow! Strong words my friend.  

It's only that almost everyone else on the net thinks that the people at Secrets are some of, or some of the only, un-bias reviewers around...

So if I have the choice in believing you or them about the macro-blocking, I go with them, because they have an excellent reputation, and some good technical back-ground to back-up their claims...

Nothing personnal.

[Ears]

''Secrets is supposed to be used as a guideline and not as a marketing tool or reccomendation but they seem like ALL marketing to me on the AVS forum.''

Wow! Strong words my friend.  


It's only that almost everyone else on the net thinks that the people at Secrets are some of, or some of the only, un-bias reviewers around...


So if I have the choice in believing you or them about the macro-blocking, I go with them, because they have an excellent reputation, and some good technical back-ground to back-up their claims...





Use your eyes, most of us have just as good of eyes as they do and do not need fancy equitpment to back up what our eyes see, and I see major macro blocking in wayyyyy too many dark scenes whith the 5900 and so does everyone else whith a dlp.

As far as using Secrets as a guideline only.....this is from there own mouths but you must have missed it.


So now your saying that the dozens of reported macro blocking  cases do not exsist??????

There are dozens of reports of macro blocking by many prior owners of the 5900 so do you think we all got togerther as a conspiracy and made up the macro blocking


The guy from secrets started a thread on macro blocking before the tests and said that he saw macro blocking in more than one movie.

Now the test is out and they claim that they could find no macro blocking

You take that for what it is  and if your happy with your 5900 because your not using a dlp, that is great enjoy it.

[Sa-dono]

Lets put it this way...the Denon 1600 is just a decent dvd video player yet it is highly rated at Secrets and I do NOT agree whith there high ranking of this  player.
They rate it much higher than it should be as compared to others I have tried.

Keep in mind that one of the factors Secrets stresses is the player's video quality on discs encoded as video, rather than just film. This means that a player's deinterlacing ability is EXTREMELY important. The Faroudja chips are pretty much unmatched in this regard. The Denon 1600 uses a Faroudja chip. See a connection yet? While some people, like yourself, may not place much importance on this, others do.

[Ears]

Keep in mind that one of the factors Secrets stresses is the player's video quality on discs encoded as video, rather than just film. This means that a player's deinterlacing ability is EXTREMELY important. The Faroudja chips are pretty much unmatched in this regard. The Denon 1600 uses a Faroudja chip. See a connection yet? While some people, like yourself, may not place much importance on this, others do.

Hmmm, the the other players I  recently judged the 1600 by ....all have dcdi[Except the Sony es]] and so does my projector....what is your point

I have found many players...all whith one dcdi version or another and only one was worse than the 1600 and that is the Samsung hd931 used through progressive scan.

To make this fair, I will use a Philips 963sa that has dcdi[Faroudja] and lists at 500.00 list just like the Denon 1600.

The Philips has a cleaner image on every movie along whith numerous video controls were the 1600 is what it is whith virtually no controls through component out.
I won't even go into build quality,ic's or sound quality but lets just say the Philips mops the floor whith the Denon.


Unlike many that take some shootout  word as a way to find a great picture, I prefer to actually buy 3 or 4 dvd players at a time and SEE  what they do in home.
I just recently Sold a 9000es and Denon 1600 that I compared against the hd931,963sa and 5900 but do keep in mind that I am using an 8ft screen that shows what these players can and can't do through projection.

A monitor tv for instance, can make almost any dvd player look good.

[Sa-dono]

Hmmm, the the other players I  recently judged the 1600 by ....all have dcdi[Except the Sony es]] and so does my projector....what is your point

I have found many players...all whith one dcdi version or another and only one was worse than the 1600 and that is the Samsung hd931 used through progressive scan.

To make this fair, I will use a Philips 963sa that has dcdi[Faroudja] and lists at 500.00 list just like the Denon 1600.

The Philips has a cleaner image on every movie along whith numerous video controls were the 1600 is what it is whith virtually no controls through component out.

That's good that you test for yourself, in your own setup. I do have a couple questions though:

1) Did you use any DVDs encoded as video in your comparisons?
2) Were all comparisons using the progressive output of the DVD player?
3) Has Secrets done a review/analysis of the Philips yet?
4) Doesn't the Philips still have the chroma bug?
5) Did you notice of any of the reported problems, like voltage or the vertical lines?

I won't even go into build quality,ic's or sound quality but lets just say the Philips mops the floor whith the Denon.

Well their comparisons are only done based on video, and not the above factors anyway.

[Ears]

Well their comparisons are only done based on video, and not the above factors anyway.

1 If you are reffering to tv shows ect relesed on dvd, the answer is no.
2 All progressive mode including the two dvi players
3 No test yet of the 963sa but I liked the 9000es better than the 1600 also and it failed several Secrets tests.....this is eactly my point about basing opinions on someone elses tests.
I will admit that the 9000es cost 3 times more and that the version I tested was highly modified including the power supply which usually helps video.
4 what chroma bug, I have seen no info on the 963sa having a chroma bug, but even if it did read #3 again.

5 Zero problems whith two different 963sa's stock and modified for better audio.



As you can plainly see, I am not brand loyal and have a JVC xasa600 on the way as we speak to check out also, but what I really want is a player whith great video like the 5900 but whitout the macro blocking.

[Sa-dono]

1 If you are reffering to tv shows ect relesed on dvd, the answer is no.
2 All progressive mode including the two dvi players
3 No test yet of the 963sa but I liked the 9000es better than the 1600 also and it failed several Secrets tests.....this is eactly my point about basing opinions on someone elses tests.
I will admit that the 9000es cost 3 times more and that the version I tested was highly modified including the power supply which usually helps video.
4 what chroma bug, I have seen no info on the 963sa having a chroma bug, but even if it did read #3 again.

5 Zero problems whith two different 963sa's stock and modified for better audio.

Well you have proven my point completely.

For 1, I am referring to interlaced material, of which many TV shows fall under. Without testing interlaced material, you will not as effectively see the advantages of a quality deinterlacing chip, of which the 9000ES fails greatly. The 9000ES also fails from the chroma bug, which appears not to bother you.

I would say that Secrets should be used as a guideline. HOWEVER, if you know exactly what Secrets are making their judgements on, and know what aspects of video you like and dislike, it can be a very helpful guideline in knowing what players will not meet your needs.

[Ears]

So people who watch tv on dvd like the Denon 1600...this explains why I was able to sell mine so quick[5 minutes on Videogon]

I, on the other hand watch movies to avoid television

There were no signs of a chroma bug from the Sony 9000 while watching movies on an 8 ft wide dlp projected screen.

This is the point I am making....tests don't always = the real world.

Tube amps measure like crap but sound great.
The Philips 963sa has better video and audio than the 9000es despite its inferior build quality and switching power supply and at 1/3rd the cost.


I don't have a problem whith people using secrets for things that matter to them, but they need to compare for themselves and not  just follow a bunch of test results blindly.

[maxwalrath]

I have the 9000es and have to ask...have others also found that the Phillips 963sa sounds better?

[Ears]

I have the 9000es and have to ask...have others also found that the Phillips 963sa sounds better?

Well I have had a stock and modified 9000 es[Modwright signature] and a stock and modified 963sa.

The 963sa is superior in cd/sa-cd in both cases and suprisingly enough, as a transport.

On the avs forum, you will find people who have sold there 777es or Phillips sacd 1000 and kept there 963sa saying they were so close, they could not justify keeping the other players.

You will also find a group shootout from a while back were the entire group preferred the 963sa over the then new Denon 2900.

There is an auction on A-gon for one of the stock 963sa's as we speak.
Check out the owners description as compared to a 2.5 k player.
He is selling his stock 963 because he got a deal on an sa-cd 1000 whith 3k worth of mods.

There are at least 7 pro modders that mod the 963sa including the latest Ear 2 amp designer that states right on his site that he prefers it to the 2k sacd 1000.
One pro modder said he preffered it to a 2k sacd 1000 whether stock or modified and another preferred a modified 963sa to a 3k Marantz sa 14 which was also modded.
If you want the names of either of these modders so you can ask yourself, e-mail me as I won't drop there names on the net.

[rkapadia@ROOP]

To group players as simply "modded" or "unmodded" and judge performance is blatently wrong.  Every pro-modder as you call them has a different methodology of swapping components, their own favorite caps/resistors etc, and potentially different output stages. I also know a couple pro-modders refuse to touch an SACD-1000 for fear of liability regarding reliability problems.  Might this have something to do with the recommendation?  Maybe.   Furthermore, if somebody doesn't know what they're doing, modding a unit can kill the musicality/tonal qualities of a unit.

It's easy to sit down with factory versions of units and pass judgement as to which is better in one's system.  But modded units should be done on purely a case by case basis.

I own a SACD-1000 (modWright as well), where Dan and I had worked in a few new revisions to the units.  I think I ended up spending something like $3,000-4,000ish including the cost of the player. I swapped it in and out with a Wadia 861 (both unbalanced) in my loudspeaker system and headphone system, and preferred the 1000 both times.  I have heard a stock 963, and was very impressed with the price/performance.  As I haven't heard a tweaked version yet, I can't comment  on the performance.

Bottom line, especially when contemplating these modded players, I'd suggest just being satisified that you'll have a top-tiered unit, and not necessarily always worry about the "my SACD player is better than yours".  If you really are in search of the absolute best performance, the only way to really know would be to have the units in your system to A/B.  Recommendations on the web don't automatically translate to an amazing musical experience, unless you fool yourself reading them enough times .

Regards,

[maxwalrath]

Thanks for the lecture roop, but I don't think you'd have a job if everyone out there was satisfied with their great sounding units  . I don't think there's anything wrong with looking on the web for other people's recommendations. Of course recommendations on the web don't automatically translate to an amazing musical experience, they have to be taken with a grain of salt.

This is a circle to share information, and if enough people out there tell me their SACD player is better than mine, I'll give it a try and A/B them. And there's nothing wrong with the "my SACD player is better than yours" mentality either. I'm very satisfied with my Sony, but that doesn't mean I'm not looking for something better and/or cheaper. Without recommendations on the internet how many people out there would have Bolder Cables or Odyssey amps in their system? It's the internet recommendations and not being satisfied with a quality product that leads to the A/B comparisons.

[rkapadia@ROOP]

max,

Sure it's a lecture, but I think it's a worthwhile one .  A lot of people make purchases based on recommendations never having listened to a single component.  How do they know it's right for them if they've never compared it?  Instead, people like to talk about how their amp is claimed to be better than some amp thousands of dollars more and feel good they saved money - they're just fooling themselves.  "Well somebody said this amp beat out a $20,000 amp, that must mean it's a great deal for sure!".  The brands you mention are all capable products that deliver strong value for dollar, but that doesn't mean they're going to be the best sound for somebody's preferences and systems.

 And if you're looking for the best SACD player, you're chasing the unicorn.  How the hell can people know if their modded SACD player compares with the best of the best if they've never seen it?  It's funny how we're all so trusting about audio when it comes to some stranger's recommendations on the internet.  

I used to put a lot of faith in internet chat recommendations, but there's so much favoritisim or someone who "got a good deal", or is friends with the manufacturer, or etc... they feel the need to post to protect the interest of their resale product - I think the "good for the money" and deal-obsessed attitude only leads to more swapping and changes in the long run...what happened to just sounding good overall.  Plenty of components make music sound good at all prices, just depends on your preferences and system.  I've seen people purchase $10,000 SET amps because they were 70% off, only to have them blown away by a little Decware kit.  
 
A good internet recommendation only means another component to add to my audition list.  There are very few people who's opinions I'd take at face value regarding musical capabilities of a component, and that's largely because we've been in the same room with various equipment and shared thoughts over how they sounded.

You're right about the recommendations, when so many people say something positive that piques my curiosity too.  I just find increasingly these people have had their first experience with high end end components, and so they may be a bit overly-enthusiastic.

Regards,

[Ears]

ROOP,  trying out gear whether cheap expensive or modified ect in your own system is a given....are you supposed to be telling us something we don't already know?

I have tried 8 different sa-cd capable players in one form or another from 500.00 to 3k and do not consider any of them to be the best there is.

I am always open to new suggestions but the fact is, even if you find the best player for the buck or best player regardless of price, there is always something better whithin a year or two when it comes to ever changing digital.

I don't believe there are too many that are on this board that will or can spend 12k or more on the latest greatest digital.
So as far as bang for the buck, modded players are the only way to go imo.