[David Ellis]

You have my admiration for making that statement,,,, there are many more manufacturer's that would say their instruments are the final word.   I look forward to seeing your final design, whatever that may be.  

Well, I do believe it's POSSIBLE to measure many more aspects of loudspeaker design and the internal components.  I have seen some VERY impressive electronic analysis equipment in a military satellite construction facility in LosAngeles - Wow!  

Dave

[David Ellis]

That's interesting.  I always knew that 1.5" was acoustically small, but I didn't know it was non-measurable.

That isn't exactly what I wrote. 

I accomplished 30-50 measurements (MLS and Gated) attempting to discern any notable differences - most of them off axis.  Most of the measurements were horizontal variations and a few vertical variations.

Clearly there were and are measurable differences.  Most of the ripple was about 1 db with a few 2db deviations.  However, there was nothing 4-5 db that I could decisively convey "there it is".

I fully appreciate the objectivist endeavors rooted in your comments.  Indeed, I have tried to isolate the impact to something measurable, but I cannot. 

Dave

[TomW16]

I will never purvey, or build a speaker with less than a 1 1/2" radius roundover in the future. 

Dave,

You should not have an inferior speaker on your premises.  I would be happy to quickly dispose of the offending 1801C square edge speakers and give them a good home.   

Cheers,

Tom

[David Ellis]

Tom,

I believe you are the gent living in Lincoln.  As such, if you are really interested I could setup a listening session in a few weeks.  But, I believe that after the listening session I can't imagine you would be willing to live with the square edges.

I suppose my work and materials in the square edge cabinets is worth about $200 assembled.  The components are fairly easily installed in a few hours.

Dave

[doug s.]

hi dave,

i read your comments w/interest.  subjectively, i would think rounding a cabinet edge would be a good thing, & would definitely outperform a square-edge cabinet, all other things being equal..  but, i have heard way too many square edge cabinets that yust sound so good, w/fantastic imaging/soundstaging, etc.  would proac, for example, not use round-edge cabinets if they would impart even better performance?  at the prices they awreddy charge, it would be easy to absorb (or pass on to the buyer!) the extra cost.

speaking of proacs, this brings up my second comment.  maybe you were not comparing apples to apples.  did you try a round edge floor stander & a square edge stand mount?  or a round-edge vs square edge of the same cabinet style?  i ask this because i know i distinctly prefer the proac 1sc over the proac 1.5, & these are basically the same speaker, except the 1.5 is floor-standing & the 1sc is stand-mount...  hmmm...   

best,

doug s.

[TomW16]

Hi Dave,

You have a good memory.  I do indeed live in Lincoln.  I am curious to hear the new 1801C but am completely satisfied with the "old" version with the Seas W18 woofer so it's a dangerous (i.e. expensive) proposition. 

My comment about disposing the square edge speaker was in jest, however, it is a crying shame that such an attractive cabinet is not useful.

Take care,

Tom

[David Ellis]

all other things being equal..  but, i have heard way too many square edge cabinets that just sound so good,

Me too.  And, there are soooo many profoundly expensive speakers that don't have a significantly rounded edge on the baffle.

would proac, for example, not use round-edge cabinets if they would impart even better performance?

I can't comment on what other manufacturers have experienced or are thinking.  I can only comment on what I have experienced and are thinking.  In my a/b test the difference was quite significant.  Unfortunately, adding a significant roundover is quite expensive from a manufacturing perspective.

at the prices they already charge, it would be easy to absorb (or pass on to the buyer!) the extra cost.
 

I... don't really think so.  It would be markedly more expensive to produce and ship (more weight).  Further, 99% of folks (including me until 2 months ago) don't perceive that a large radius roundover could or should have any impact.  In the realm of selling a product, Perception Is Reality.  Further, I think the large painted black roundover is far less attractive than a clean veneer edge.  Implementing the roundover is an expensive proposition on many levels.

speaking of Proac's, this brings up my second comment.  maybe you were not comparing apples to apples.  did you try a round edge floor stander & a square edge stand mount?  or a round-edge vs square edge of the same cabinet style?  i ask this because i know i distinctly prefer the proac 1sc over the proac 1.5, & these are basically the same speaker, except the 1.5 is floor-standing & the 1sc is stand-mount...

Your query is reasonable, and I have considered this.  Unfortunately, it is not he controlling variable.  I have spent many hours with the 1801B in floorstanding (square edged baffle) and stand-mounted configurations (3/4" roundover).  Several folks have performed this comparison.  The difference was extremely small/non-existent.

I can also offer that the woofer in the two Proac speakers you mention is completely different, and the crossover must also be significantly different.  I have a reasonably amount of objective (i.e. measured) and subjective experience swapping drivers and puttering with crossover typology, slopes and response levels.  As such, it is my opinion that applying the Proac 1.5 & 1sc experience toward asserting the superiority of a stand-mounted speaker is spurious.

HOWEVER, I can and should offer that a relatively old acoustic handbook from the 1950/1960 authored by Olsen conveyed that loudspeakers having a shape similar to the human head were subjectively preferred and and had less baffle induced response ripple than other baffle configurations.  I managed to obtain the handbook via interlibrary loan.  I don't recall the specific handbook title/author, but it was mentioned on this company's page:  http://www.usenclosure.com/WELCOME%20TO%20US%20ENCLOSURE%20COMPANY/index.htm .  I found the egg shaped enclosure rhetoric in the acoustic handbook was reasonably reflected in the commentary from the website.  But, there were a few questionable "interpretations".

Hopefully my response is cohesive and understandable.  Please let me know if there are informational gaps or areas where you desire further explanation.

Dave

[David Ellis]

it is a crying shame that such an attractive cabinet is not useful.

My wife's words were somewhat less kind  .  She understands the time and effort that went into the floorstanding speakers, and two other pair of floorstanding cabinets.  And, while my wife agrees that the splash-painted cabinet (color's chosen my my boys) sounds better, these speakers are not very classy.

Dave

[TomW16]

Maybe you and your wife can guide your boys into a better suited color for the rounded cabinets to "class" them up a bit.

Take care,
Tom

[doug s.]

dave, thanks for the info.  in the case of proacs, it's my opinion, that, due to the already huge mark-up, proac could afford to incorporate a rounded cabinet - their customers would pay it.  my tiny tablette 8 ref sigs retailed for $1800 (i think they are more, now), & no one in their right mind would pay that much for them.  but they do!     and, if you find a used pair for $1200 on a-gon, they're gone in a day.  i can only imagine how much better they might sound in a 1.5" quarter-round cabinet... 

re: the 1.5 & 1sc, must have been a brain infarct on my part - i thought they were identical.  but you're right - the 1.5 has a bigger woofer...

best,

doug s.

[TimS]

.....No.  The bottom line... I will never purvey, or build a speaker with less than a 1 1/2" radius roundover in the future.  If the subjective value of the Sonicap Platinum bypass capacitor implementation is $180, the subjective value of the 1 1/2" radius roundover on all edges of the baffle is $400-$500.  This is my conveyance and and the believe of the other local gentlemen who performed the a/b testing during the final stages of the 1801C.  I will explain the history and backround. 

I made several incorrect assumptions.  First, I assumed that if having a large radius roundover on a speaker was important that ALL truly high-end loudspeakers would implement a large radius roundover.  This assumption was incorrect.  Second, I assumed that a 3/4" roundover should have a some impact, but in very thorough previous testing (objective and subjective).  This assumption was incorrect.  Third, I assumed that if a large radius roundover was significant, then surely the DIY crowd would implement this in their workshops.  This assumption was incorrect.

I've recently been thinking about changing the baffles on my 1801's (currently MDF) to hardwood so I find this topic quite interesting.  I can't quite picture how the roundovers are achieved - does the hardwood baffle now have to be at least 1 1/2" thick or does the roundover use both the timber baffle and the MDF sides to get the required radius?  If the latter, wouldn't it make veneering quite difficult?

[David Ellis]

does the hardwood baffle now have to be at least 1 1/2" thick

Yes. 

There are several mechanical difficulties when using the 1 1/2" radius bit. 

1.  A reduced speed router will be necessary.  The bit will generate significant heat.  Also, using the bit on high speed is quite frightening.

2.  Most newer routers will not physically accomodate the very large bit.  I decided to purchase a big Makita router and grind-out the aluminum base to accomodate the bit.

I suppose you could attempt veneering around the intial 3/4" of the roundover, but matching the veneer to the hardwood baffle would be quite difficult.

The changes to the 1801 cabinet aren't dramatic.  They are twofold.

1.  I decided to use 1 1/2" MDF on the back panel.  I can't convey that I have a/b tested this, but this implementation is not very difficult and should/could be better.

2.  The front baffle is now 3/4MDF and 1 1/2" of lumber.  OR, if someone wishes to build a complete MDF speaker (and paint the cabinet), the baffle can be 1 1/2" total.  I don't believe there is/will be an audible impact between 1 1/2" of baffle and 2 1/4 (total) of baffle.

Dave

[fred]

Dave - Are you close enough to completing your design work that you can give us an ETA for when you might begin selling kits?

[mzbrahce]

Dave--

Regarding the 1 1/2" roundover on your prototype "C"s:  I assume that with the floor-stander you would not need to roundover the botton edge.  Why not pre-route the roundover (and some opposite-edge profile) on long pieces of 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" square cherry, using a router table with that huge bit. Cut to size, with mitered edges where sides and top meet, and glue to the sides of your existing cabinets, flush with the front baffle, like a picture frame.  On future cabinets the 1 1/2" thick baffle could be cut 1 1/2" large for each side rounded over.  The top, sides (and bottom if stand-mounted) could be covered with planks of hardwood or MDF, flush to the outside of the baffle and with some sort of taper to the back, if desired.  I think many veneers could be applied continuously around a 1 1/2" roundover--with the grain--which would give a nice clean look, but top and bottom roundovers would have to be accomplished (as you would say) with a rounded-over fillet of appropriate hardwood, which does sound a bit tricky....

-------------Mark

[KS]

Isn't a 1-1/2" roundover best (and most safely) cut on a shaper?  (A woodworking shaper is a table containing a motor and vertical spindle, along with a fence and other guides.  http://www.powermatic.com/Results.aspx?cat=332108) 

A good Amana 1-1/2" roundover shaper cutter is about $185.  The cutter could be serially bought and sold from one Ellis 1801c builder to the next.

The 1801c builders can take their front baffle blank taken to any local custom cabinet shop or very well equipped amateur shop for the roundovers to be cut at a small cost with the builder's cutter.  Then, sell the cutter to the next builder needing it. 

[KS]

Or, for the 1-1/2" round over, make multiple angle cuts with a table saw to approximate the round over, then hand finish.  Would it work to use a cabinet scraper ground to the 1-1/2" radius?...could a proper burr be put on the scraper's round-over edge?

[David Ellis]

Dave - Are you close enough to completing your design work that you can give us an ETA for when you might begin selling kits?

I am able to sell kits now, but the builder would have to manage the 1 1/2" roundover on the current 1801 cabinet plans.  And, the back panel should be 1 1/2" thick.  A telephone discussion would be necessary to address any construction concerns.  This is perfectly normal.  I generally expect a few phone calls during construction on various topics.

Isn't a 1-1/2" roundover best (and most safely) cut on a shaper?

Yes.  Using a 1 1/2" radius roundover bit on a router is on the fringe of viability.  It works dandy on my Makita 4312 router .  This router has ample power and can operate at a low speed, but a shaper would be more ideal - especially for a large production run of material.  The larger overall diameter of a shaper, lower cutter head speed. and larger shank (stability) would make the shaper a better tool for any larger bits.  If I wanted to run 1000' of material through the bit, a shaper would be a must.  I did consider this before purchasing the Makita router. 

Regarding the 1 1/2" roundover on your prototype "C"s:  I assume that with the floor-stander you would not need to roundover the botton edge. 

I don't have plans to purvey or encourage a floor standing 1801C speaker.  This is simply because the width of the floorsander is only 7 1/2".  With a 1 1/2" roundover a 7" woofer would look quite strange, and the crossover might also need work/changes.  If the floorstander baffle was wider the volume of the cabinet would grow and there would be no need for the bottom portion of the cabinet.  Therefore, I believe the most pragmatic approach is to build a stand-mounted cabinet very similar to the 1801B, but thicker panels on the front and back. 

And... I do appreciate the rest of your commentary regarding another method of cabinet making to obtain the roundover.  I have seen cabinets made this way, and... am not willing to chase this.  While a cabinet with less lumber and more MDF would be more stable, implementing a "picture frame" around the baffle creates too many seams to fit.  I find this labor extremely tedious and difficult to get perfect.  If the cabinet was significantly wider, this approach (or something similar) would be necessary (IMO) - unless the lumber was quarter-sawn. 

I do appreciate your comments, and would also like to convey that your explanation was extremely laconic  .  I am certain that I couldn't have provided an explanation of similar fashion.  My hunch is that you have performed this process a few times  aa ? 

Dave

[David Ellis]

Or, for the 1-1/2" round over, make multiple angle cuts with a table saw to approximate the round over, then hand finish.  Would it work to use a cabinet scraper ground to the 1-1/2" radius?...could a proper burr be put on the scraper's round-over edge?

With a good hand & eye this is possible.  I do believe some folks could accomplish this with a high degree of success.  However, I don't have this level of manual skill.  I could do this task tolerably, but not to perfection.

There is a guy that at work that can hand-cut veneer inlay.  The level of fine dexterity required is amazing!  Laprosco-pic surgery is probably easier.

I have also seen folks hand-cut fancy dove tail joints by hand.  This is completely uncanny IMO - wow!!

I don't believe the roundover must be prefect to accomplish the desired audible impact.

Dave

[fred]

David -  I love my 1801b's, so I'm very curious what to expect from the 1801c's.  When you have a chance, could you summarize the sonic differences between them?

[David Ellis]

David -  I love my 1801b's, so I'm very curious what to expect from the 1801c's.  When you have a chance, could you summarize the sonic differences between them?

I have been thinking about your query for a few days.  Your query is reasonable, but I have some lament regarding the expression of my subjective commentary on my speakers.  I have decided not to go down this slippery-slope. 

I continue to believe there are too many folks conveying profusely too many good things about what they sell, and I believe this is wrong.  A few weeks ago one of my older 1801B customers called me and conveyed that he was led-astray.  He spent about $8k on a loudspeaker with a VERY solid cabinet, but only better than average drivers.  Unfortunately, he was disappointed.  Hence, I am really not willing to go down this slippery slope and won't post subjective prose regarding the sonic differences.  However, a few comments seem appropriate.

I loved my 1801B speakers too.  Indeed I thought there was no room for marked improvement in the realm of building a high quality 2-way speaker.  It appeared that anything else available would simply be different, but not better.  And, at various points in the development, this appeared to be the case.  However, after all experiments were finished the end result are the following decisions that I will always implement in the speakers used in my living room.  Every future loudspeaker used in my living room will have:

1.  .1uf Sonicap Platinum bypass capacitors implemented pervasively.

2.  At least a 1 1/2" roundover on the baffle.

3.  Accuton Midrange/Midbass instead of a the SEAS W18.

I have been running the 1801C in my living room for the past 6-8 weeks.  Upon completion of the splash-painted prototype and a very easy a/b comparison, I have no desire to listen to the 1801B.  And, I have not used the 1801B since I completed the 1801C.

I am going on vacation in a few days and will leave my 1801B & 1801C speakers with a local hifi nut for a good comparison.  When he is completed, I will ask him to post this review on this forum, and on AudioReview .  Hopefully this will happen @ Aug 15th.  I have always encouraged public feedback of my product and will continue to do this with the 1801C. 

Sincerely,

Dave