[Jonathan]

I am (still) in search of an amp to drive a pair of Thiel CS 3.6s. Budget is under $1400. I recently owned (and sold) a PS Audio HCA-2 that sounded quite nice on the lows and mids, but rolled off on top. I also tried an Aragon 8002, which overall sounded nice at low volumes, but harsh as I turned things up.

Conventional wisdom about the Thiels says I need a "high power" and "high current" amp that doubles in power from 8 ohms to 4. Although the PS Audio experiment has made me wary of the digital amp idea, I see that many of the new ICE technology digital amps are rated this way (e.g., 250 wpc into 8 ohms and 500 into 4). Sounds good to me. But I'm not sure how the latest iteration of these kinds of amps differ from the earlier ones, like the HCA-2.

In the "tried and true" department, I'm also looking at a used Parasound Halo A21, which is also rated at 250 wpc (but not quite double into 4 ohms). I've read lots of good things about this amp, and the price is right.

At the end of the day, I can probably return the ICE amp if it doesn't work out (trial period); on the other hand, I'm sure I can re-sell the Parasound for what I paid if it doesn't work out.  I'd just rather not make another mistake--I'm getting tired of buying and selling amplifiers.

 I'd be interested in hearing what others' experiences are with either of these amps, or what you think of the options I've mentioned. Thanks,

-Jon

[Toka]

I've been really liking what I've been hearing from some ICE (and Hypex, UcD, etc.) amplifiers. Can give you a mountain load of clean power for not a lot of cash (or size/heat). The ICE modules are essentially drop-in and go...they are exactly the same in a $1K amp as they are in a $4K amp...the difference in price lies in casework, sundry connectors, and marketing. I guess you can pay as much as needed to make you feel ok about it. I can't say any of these designs are my favorite for 2-channel, but when I finally get around to building an HT these will be the first place I look.

[denjo]

Conventional wisdom about the Thiels says I need a "high power" and "high current" amp that doubles in power from 8 ohms to 4.

Generally speaking the higher the wattage of an amplifier, the better matched they are with Thiels! However, not all watts are the same or measured the same way! For example, I have used the CIAudio D*200 monos (rated 200 into 8 ohms, 360 into 4) and the YBA Integre DT (Dual Transformer) rated at 50 watts into 8 ohms and 90 into 4, and the YBA Integre handles the Thiels CS2.4 much better than the CIAudio D*200s. I was very surprised with the results myself! I have even used a Cary 300B SET (8 watts into 8 ohms and roughly twice into 4 ohms) and the Carys were able to drive the Thiels within reasonable volume range. While the class D amps seem to have quite a bit of power on paper, it seems strange that they don't seem to extract the very best from the Thiels. IMHO. Bottom line: its the quality of the watts and not just the quantity that you should look for!

Best Regards
Dennis

[TRADERXFAN]

FWIW I really love my PS-audio C-100 modified by Cullen Circuits... part of that is undoubtedly due to the gain cell for volume control.

For the higher wattage you should definitely take a look at the Wyred4sound offerings.  They use high quality parts and at really good prices.

A Wyred4sound amp was used in the Modwright room at CES 2008 and he liked it...

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=49730.msg446029#msg446029


For more information and comparisons, there are some well written revies of the PS-audo GCC modded and unmodded and the EVS-500 from Ric Schultz at 10audio.com

[woodsyi]

I recently listened to a CS2.4 at a friend's house.  He was auditioning a new amp and wanted a second opinion.  The new amp was TAD Hibachi.  I don't know what technology it uses but I am guessing it's a digital switcher with custom toroidal power supply -- low idling power consumption and relatively light weight.  Could be a class AB with the heat sink fins.  The bottom line was that this particular match was not good.  Hibachis with Thiels sounded thin, veiled and sibilant compared to his regular amp -- Music Reference RM200s.  May be you need big tubes for Thiels.

I also have a pair of Ice amp (Acoustic Reality eAR 1001s) that I use to drive the woofers on my speakers.  These are very good at controlling big woofers but I found the highs to be less refined and thus unsuitable for full range application.  YMMV.

[mcullinan]

Ive heard Bryston and the new Thiels and together they sounded quite good. Very neutral. What beautiful speakers they are!
Mike

[mcgsxr]

A good friend of a friend of mine has Thiel's with Adcom, and it does well in his large room.

[Zero]

What I've found is this;

Ears that typically favor components laced in glowing glass have already selected their stripes. It's that 'tube luv' that no class D amplifier (that I've encountered at least) can fully recreate. The closest you'll come is finding the most transparent amplifier possible and a tube pre to give the sound some 'flava'.

Now, this may be a conflict of interest, but I am going to stick my neck out and say that the best implementation of ICE power that my ears have encountered has come from the H2O Signature 100. To date, it is the only class D product I've come across that has not incited a 'loaning for the tried and true approach' reaction after a few hours/weeks of listening. Naturally of course, it is important to note that most like people - there's a lot of configurations and gear that I haven't experienced.

The bottom line is that there are plenty of folks that went the class D route and never looked back, as owners of Red Wine Audio products will proudly testify. To my gas can ears, the H2O Signature 100 is my current reference as to what ICE is capable of. Tried and true or not, its a hell of an amp.

[AphileEarlyAdopter]

I think with switching/digital amps you need a good power connection in the house, atleast or more for  the ones with the switching power supplies. Probably, a dedicated connection, clean tight fitting sockets and a good power cord. This is because the power is source dynamically from the wall.

I have a Panny xr55 digital amplifier receiver. The more dynamic a power cord I put it on it, much better the sound. Something like a power factor correcting power conditioner (like Running Springs Audio) would be a good and actually an important accessory for these kind of amps.

Also, these sort of amps do not work well with speakers whose impedence varies a lot. The ICE modules on paper seem to be immune to this (because of the doubling of power as impedence halves) but I cannot be sure as I have not heard them.

[Bob Wilcox]

I used to use a Panasonic - I think it was the 45 model. It was remarkable for its size and cost but the eAR Two and H20 amps I have heard sound better and have no problem controlling 4 ohm speakers.

Bob

[art]

The ICE modules are essentially drop-in and go...they are exactly the same in a $1K amp as they are in a $4K amp...the difference in price lies in casework, sundry connectors, and marketing.

Maybe in most cases, but not all. Gee, I wonder how I would know that..........

Pat

[Sonny]

A lot of good suggestions here...

I for one, can whole heartedly recommend Ric Shultz EVS 500M...
Here's my saga:

I built a pair of DIY speakers, three-way ScanSpeak in an all sealed cabinet.  rated 88db at 4 ohm.

I had driven it with a Innersound 300wpc, a set of Cyber 800 tube mono blocks (78wpc), Odyssey Stratos Extreme at 200+wpc and in all honesty, Ric's ICE amps one out...and guess what I am running, the 500Ms (500wpc into 8ohm)
I can tell you, I don't know about other ICE amps, but I can say that Ric's is the real thing!!! amazing...he just does it right!

The 500M brought out the bottom end, the snap in the kettle drum, the extremes in dynamics and so much details!!!  They are basically the best amps I've tried, ad for a very affordable price...

Find a pair....

Tuan

[Jonathan]

I decided to forgo both the ICE amp and Halo A21 options. Instead I bought another pair of Quicksilver Silver 90 Monos. I had purchased a pair of these over the holidays, but never got to hear them because one got stolen en-route (yeah, that sucked). Having owned (and really liking) the Mini Mite Monos, I'm pretty psyched to hear these. 

Anyway, thanks again to those who offered their suggestions and input--I really appreciate it.

Jon

[Rocket]

Hi,

I think that some of the problems that you experienced with the ps audio hca - 2 is that in their stock form they don't sound very good.  I bought mine off the back of many good reports and from my memory I can only remember one negative post.  Well, that one person got it right.

In its stock form the bass and midrange are very thin and I found it pretty hard to listen to.  I compared the hca - 2 amplifier to an n.e.w 20.1 and the n.e.w was so much better.

When it is modified its a pretty good sounding amplifier and this is what I have done.  In comparison to my Son of Ampzilla it isn't quite as good but does cost a fair bit less.

I hope you enjoy your new amplifier.

Regards

Rocket

[Jonathan]

In its stock form the bass and midrange are very thin and I found it pretty hard to listen to. . . I hope you enjoy your new amplifier.

Thanks for the good wishes on the new amps--I'm excited to hear them!

I find your take on the HCA-2 interesting in that it differs from my own experience a great deal (I found the bottom and mids in the stock HCA -2 to be quite nice sounding; it was the high end I found problematic).

I have to say, it never ceases to amaze me how disparate the opinions are regarding the sound of hi-fi equipment.  Now I truly don't mean to disparage anyone with this comment, but I often wonder why we even bother asking each other for opinions? We all have such different ancillary gear, different sounding rooms, and, perhaps most importantly, different subjective realities about what sounds good.

Knowing this, isn't it folly trying to incorporate other people's opinions into our own decision making process?

[SET Man]

I decided to forgo both the ICE amp and Halo A21 options. Instead I bought another pair of Quicksilver Silver 90 Monos. I had purchased a pair of these over the holidays, but never got to hear them because one got stolen en-route (yeah, that sucked). Having owned (and really liking) the Mini Mite Monos, I'm pretty psyched to hear these. 

Anyway, thanks again to those who offered their suggestions and input--I really appreciate it.

Jon

Hey!

     Look like you've just save yourself sometime and maybe money. If you like tube before than eventually you will be ending up buying tube amp anyway.

     Honestly I've heard some Tri-path, ICE, UcD and similar amps. Altought only one in my system the rest are in others system. I have to say that I've never came across one that I feel that I could live with for real.

      But the strange thing is that I do own a JVC F10 receiver a type of Tri-path I think... running my small second/TV system and I have no problem listening to it. Well, for TV and casual listening but nothing serious. That's I do with my main system

    So, what happen to the other amp? Anyway, good luck.

Take care,
Buddy

[NewBuyer]

...I have to say, it never ceases to amaze me how disparate the opinions are regarding the sound of hi-fi equipment.  Now I truly don't mean to disparage anyone with this comment, but I often wonder why we even bother asking each other for opinions? We all have such different ancillary gear, different sounding rooms, and, perhaps most importantly, different subjective realities about what sounds good.

Knowing this, isn't it folly trying to incorporate other people's opinions into our own decision making process?

Well said.

[Rocket]

Hi Jonathon,

Yes very well said.  It is amazing how much our tastes and opinions differ. 

Regards

Rod

[JimJ]

I have to say that I've never came across one that I feel that I could live with for real.

I've heard an AudioSource 7 running La Scalas, and something just didn't sit right with me...

http://www.alpine-usa.com/US-en/products/product.php?model=PDX-4.100

Those are interesting little amps, though. I've got some friends that are big into SQ competition and say they love them, but I've yet to hear any...

[darrenyeats]

We all have such different ancillary gear, different sounding rooms, and, perhaps most importantly, different subjective realities about what sounds good.

Knowing this, isn't it folly trying to incorporate other people's opinions into our own decision making process?

I couldn't agree more!

Point 1. This is why many people argue that measurements are an important guide when buying audio products.

Many people have no problem looking at the bare figures when it comes to cars. 0-60 acceleration, top speed, lap time around a track. All these are not matters of argument but facts. There are qualitative factors like handling, comfort and styling for which there are no measurements. But people don't say "there are some things about cars that can't be measured therefore all measurements on cars are junk". That would be illogical.

The problem with sources and amps is exactly as you stated. There are so many different systems, rooms and contexts for these pieces of equipment that they cannot be "voiced" to sound good everywhere.

Point 2. This is why the ONLY sensible aim for a source or amp designer is transparency - reproducing the input signal as faithfully as possible at the output. So when people start talking about a source having a nice "warm" sound I get nervous. An ideal source should have a "nothing" sound i.e. it can sound warm or cold depending on the signal, but it doesn't sound consistently like anything. In a world where there are so many different systems and contexts how can anything else be the aim?
Darren