[pbrstreetgang]

newb questions:

1. what is the difference between speakers and monitors?

2. why single driver given my tastes?

3. yay for tubes!

4. i do like the look of the glow...which makes my "gimmick" alarms go off...

Nah, no gimmick. Just the most tried and true way to actively amplify a signal. 

[JimJ]

newb questions:

1. what is the difference between speakers and monitors?

2. why single driver given my tastes?

3. yay for tubes!

4. i do like the look of the glow...which makes my "gimmick" alarms go off...

1. Interchangeable terms.

2. It may not be for you. For me, single drivers worked really well in my apartment, because I'm running single ended amps that will pitch a fit if I used complex crossovers. Single drivers provide a true "point source", there's no differential between tweeters and midbasses because they're all in the same unit

3. Yay indeed

4. As mentioned above, no gimmick...although tubes aren't compatible with any old speaker you find, and may not be your thing.

[Ichinichi]

  no. not the glow of the tubes! i'm talking about the ring around the volume knob that "subtly changes color as you listen" and the led's under the tubes (edit: of the glow amp one linked in mark's post on page 2).

[pbrstreetgang]

Yes now that is a gimmick- Along with cats eyes tubes and flashing LED strip tubes. Whats the purpose of those things anyway? Saw a recipe for a homemade Geiger meter or something then decided I didnt care to know.

[mcgsxr]

I interpret your post to infer that you are looking for balanced sound, midrange critical, good imaging, and tubes.

Vocal and midrange are the strength of "standard" single driver sound, along with great coherency.

You did not ask for super detail, nor monster bass.

Lower powered tube amps often bring lots of magic for their price point, but to leverage them fully you will need higher efficiency speakers.

Nodiak makes some excellent suggestions too, I have not heard that Jolida, but have read a lot of good things about their line, and Bill from Response Audio is a strong participant around there, so I am sure you will get good guidance etc.

The Totel Arro is a great suggestion too, as are Robin's speakers, if you are looking outside the single driver thing.

Speaker vs monitor in my books - monitor means small stand/bookshelf size speaker, vs a larger footprint floorstander.  The Totem Arro is an example of a floor standing monitor - basically the stand is built right into the bookshelf size (in terms of driver compliment, internal volume, and shape) speaker.

The gimmicks of the amp I linked to can likely be ignored - I am interested in the fact that it is a SEP EL84 amp, same topology as mine, and I can definitely recommend the sound of single driver speakers with the lushness of midrange of the single ended tubes.  Plus USB connectivity, you don't even need any of those DAC units, just plug and play with speakers.

Good luck,

Have fun!

[mcgsxr]

Some nice amp options on A'gon today.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1207586640 - nice EL34 integrated
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1207721768 - nice ONIX tube integrated
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1207680077 - nice Cambridge SS integrated
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1207708797 - powerful NAD SS integrated

Listed in my order of preference, given my understanding of what you seek.  All leave $1000 for your speaker budget, and all allow for use with just about any speakers, as they are all 38-120wpc, so you can choose speakers with mid 80's+ efficiency - which is basically anything.

[Ichinichi]

Hello all! I'm learning a lot from you guys! 

Mark, I do want detail, second only to imaging on my list of wants. I used the term "resolution" instead. Instrument separation, beginnings and ends of notes (attack and decay (?)). Coming from headphone drivers an inch away from my ears, detail is something that I automatically look for now (darn head-fi!  ).

Superb imaging
Fantastic detail
Balanced sound
Tubey warmth
Midrange critical

As for bass...I don't know how best to describe what I want: I don't want the bass to be too much bigger than the room. You're right, not MONSTER bass, but not kitten bass either. The modified Insignias give me kitten bass: its there, but I can't...bite into it.

Does that change the suggestions?

[Ichinichi]

Some nice amp options on A'gon today.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1207586640 - nice EL34 integrated
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1207721768 - nice ONIX tube integrated
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1207680077 - nice Cambridge SS integrated
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1207708797 - powerful NAD SS integrated

Listed in my order of preference, given my understanding of what you seek.  All leave $1000 for your speaker budget, and all allow for use with just about any speakers, as they are all 38-120wpc, so you can choose speakers with mid 80's+ efficiency - which is basically anything.

Thanks once more, Mark!

I'm worried about the resellability of the Jolida. I saw it yesterday and the price ain't bad, but is it overpriced for the condition its in? I personally don't care much about singlepoint cosmetic damage like that, but I worry about resale and possible internal damage?

Can someone give me the lo-down on Jolida? I'ma go do me a search right now - but hearsay is oft more useful than the official picture.

[nodiak]

Ichinichi,
Sounds like an EL84 amp...imaging, detail, balanced, midrange. If you go PP 20 watt then 86db+ speakers should work, if you go SE 2-4 watt then 93db+ speakers (official "imo" note hear). You also have a good size reflective room so a sense of space/ambience is boosted (for better or worse). A Rythmik sub will do what you want bass wise, I'm sure there are others too.
I've used several fullrange/widerange drivers and like the midrange and coherency of many. What doesn't work for me is the way many beam too much which causes the soundscape to track with you as you walk by or even move your head for some of them. I like the soundscape to stay pretty stable from several angles. A waveguide tweeter or coaxial 2-way does this well in my experience. It isn't true that only single drivers have great coherence, it's all about a well done crossover and tweeters and woofers that blend sonically.
In yours and my budget diy helps dramatically. If you or someone you know can build the boxes consider these to go with a PP amp:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/Waveguidetmm.html
Also the GR Research A/V3 and OB5 mtm's look great.
For a low watt SE EL84 amp a pair of used Galante Rhapsody's would be very nice, coherence of a single driver and a wide, balanced soundstage (I have some clones of these and they are the best high efficiency speakers I've tried with my 1.5 watt EL84 amp). Assistance Audio lists a 12" Coaxial which might omit the need for a sub. They also have a 5" and 8" coax that isn't listed, could email them if interested.
http://www.assistanceaudio.com/15_Assaudcoaxial.html
All this is not much different than asking someone to recommend something from a restaurant with a limitless menu...they will give it their best shot but don't have your taste buds to know for sure what will please you. It's pretty common to keep trying new pieces/dishes until you start zeroing in on your own tastes.
Good luck, Don

[Ichinichi]

well, its almost done!

went out for a listening session, some instruction and a lot of wisdom.

nodiak, it looks like i'm going with at least 2 out of 3 of your suggestions! Jolida 102b and Robin's speakers.

I'd like a few more suggestions about the sub. What does one look for? Anyone?

[satfrat]

Here ya go,,, and you won't find it for a better price,,, it is the old style Force. For the size of your room, this 10" woofer is all you'll need that'll blend in well w/o overpowering the room.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1207449457

Cheers,
Robin

[pbrstreetgang]

Funny nearly 10 years ago  I bought a Jolida 202a for 250 and sold it a year later (I really didnt prefer it but now I have a Bella Extreme and love it- go figure) for $450. I kinda chuckle that they are worth more now than when first released

[mcgsxr]

Looks like you are getting some excellent advice around here, the system that you are creating will be a ton of fun in that room.

The recommended sub sounds nice, here are a few other options too.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1207748212
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1207711740
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1207697058
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1207612893
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1207428909

The Force that satfrat suggested is very nice, but if any of these are closer (geographically) I would think some of them a great option too.

[Martyn]

Sorry if I'm a little late to the party, but I wondered whether you've considered a pair of Dave Ellis' 1801 speakers (http://www.ellisaudio.com/). He has a board in Manufacturers' Mall. The crossover design is by Dennis Murphy who has an excellent "classical" ear (and does Jim Salk's crossovers too).

[nodiak]

Hey man don't blame me  I was just following along with what others have said on those speakers and amp, they sound like great deals and I'm sure are good  .
But I do stand by the Rythmik sub recommendation as I've lived with one for several months now. Read up on it's servo technology (it's not like the older servo's). Basically it controls the driver like a brake, keeping it from over-excursing, and maintaining quick reaction to impulses without overhang. It also goes amazingly deep. I've used other subs (including the drivers used in ACI Titan*) and they all sound heavier and slower. The Rythmiks are something I wish everyone who is into subs could hear. It's surprising how tight bass can sound. I would expect anything ACI produces to be good also, but...
You know, whatever you get at this point looks like it's going to be very nice. This place is great, saves us all alot of time and money.
Don

*I like these, and I like ACI. I used several Audio Concepts/Mike Dzurko kits and drivers in the 80's. They were great then and surely have gotten even better.

[Dan Driscoll]

Hello all! I'm learning a lot from you guys! 

Mark, I do want detail, second only to imaging on my list of wants. I used the term "resolution" instead. Instrument separation, beginnings and ends of notes (attack and decay (?)). Coming from headphone drivers an inch away from my ears, detail is something that I automatically look for now (darn head-fi!  ).

IME Vandersteens would fit your preferences pretty well. Have you had a chance to demo any? The one drawback is that they are not very efficient, so you'll need at least a 20W tube amp to drive them. I use an analog preamp and SS power amp to drive mine, but I run my digital sources through tube DAC. It's a combination that I think works very well. Another advantage of the Vandys is that they are full-range and have good bass output. Given the type of bass you like, you probably wouldn't need a sub-woofer.

[Ichinichi]

Hi Dan! I'v not had a chance to try out the Vandersteens. I wish I could though, what with all the recommendations here! I assume they're floor standing speakers, given your comment about how they can extend low.

The amp thing is a problem though. With my limited budget, I can only really put my money to an amp, not Pre-amp, DAC then amp...

Hello all! I'm learning a lot from you guys! 

Mark, I do want detail, second only to imaging on my list of wants. I used the term "resolution" instead. Instrument separation, beginnings and ends of notes (attack and decay (?)). Coming from headphone drivers an inch away from my ears, detail is something that I automatically look for now (darn head-fi!  ).

IME Vandersteens would fit your preferences pretty well. Have you had a chance to demo any? The one drawback is that they are not very efficient, so you'll need at least a 20W tube amp to drive them. I use an analog preamp and SS power amp to drive mine, but I run my digital sources through tube DAC. It's a combination that I think works very well. Another advantage of the Vandys is that they are full-range and have good bass output. Given the type of bass you like, you probably wouldn't need a sub-woofer.

[Dan Driscoll]

Hi Dan! I'v not had a chance to try out the Vandersteens. I wish I could though, what with all the recommendations here! I assume they're floor standing speakers, given your comment about how they can extend low.

The amp thing is a problem though. With my limited budget, I can only really put my money to an amp, not Pre-amp, DAC then amp...

I know all about limited budgets, I'm well versed in the ways of Audiogon. 

What I described is my system now, it took a while to get to that point. When I first got my Vandys (used) I drove them with a Yamaha HT receiver. The power amp (demo), preamp (used) and tube DAC (used) all came later.

[doug s.]

you're not missing much - the mid-line vandy's are some of the most syrupy, dark, veiled, diffuse sounding speakers i have heard.  but, mebbe you need to hear 'em for yourself, to come to that opinion...   

doug s.

Hi Dan! I'v not had a chance to try out the Vandersteens. I wish I could though, what with all the recommendations here! I assume they're floor standing speakers, given your comment about how they can extend low.

The amp thing is a problem though. With my limited budget, I can only really put my money to an amp, not Pre-amp, DAC then amp...

Hello all! I'm learning a lot from you guys! 

Mark, I do want detail, second only to imaging on my list of wants. I used the term "resolution" instead. Instrument separation, beginnings and ends of notes (attack and decay (?)). Coming from headphone drivers an inch away from my ears, detail is something that I automatically look for now (darn head-fi!  ).

IME Vandersteens would fit your preferences pretty well. Have you had a chance to demo any? The one drawback is that they are not very efficient, so you'll need at least a 20W tube amp to drive them. I use an analog preamp and SS power amp to drive mine, but I run my digital sources through tube DAC. It's a combination that I think works very well. Another advantage of the Vandys is that they are full-range and have good bass output. Given the type of bass you like, you probably wouldn't need a sub-woofer.

[Dan Driscoll]

That's why we have IMO and YMMV.