[BrianM]

Oh, and if we go back though your posts, I notice it's pretty much nothing but power power power, and smug disregard for anyone who doesn't have it, who is therefore missing the boat.  And here I thought you were missing the boat feeding everything through that Sunfire.  Since we're slinging mud, I've heard those, and it wasn't what I'd exactly call music.  So there's two sides to the whole "whose hearing might be suspect" routine.

[Phil]

I'm a believer in balanced power.  In my system, an equi=tech feeds the source component.  This particular model was designed for sources, so it doesn't have enough juice for an amp.  It isn't that I don't believe balanced power can help clean up an amp's sound too, just that I don't have a unit that can do so.

I'm also using Alan Maher's PEs.  These share duplex outlets with your components.  It is strange that such a small device can have such a large effect, but that is what I hear.  They are one tweak I can't see not trying.

IMHO, it is best to start with dedicated circuits first.  They make a substantial improvement.  Circuits shared with lights, dimmers, fans, etc. inject grit into your system.  Though I don't like to admit it, the outlet itself also makes a difference (in my system anyway).  I recently replaced my old "audiophile" outlets with new ones and am surprised by the difference.  Still checking these out so can't say I've heard all they can do. 

So, I'd suggest the dedicated circuits to begin.  They can cost very little depending upon how long the run is, etc.  Then I'd try the PEs.  Give them 10 days to be most effective.  Lots of info about these on an industry thread.  I don't believe these two measure are very system dependent so should work for lots of folks. 

Phil

[satfrat]

I'm a believer in balanced power.  In my system, an equi=tech feeds the source component.  This particular model was designed for sources, so it doesn't have enough juice for an amp.  It isn't that I don't believe balanced power can help clean up an amp's sound too, just that I don't have a unit that can do so.

I'm also using Alan Maher's PEs.  These share duplex outlets with your components.  It is strange that such a small device can have such a large effect, but that is what I hear.  They are one tweak I can't see not trying.

IMHO, it is best to start with dedicated circuits first.  They make a substantial improvement.  Circuits shared with lights, dimmers, fans, etc. inject grit into your system.  Though I don't like to admit it, the outlet itself also makes a difference (in my system anyway).  I recently replaced my old "audiophile" outlets with new ones and am surprised by the difference.  Still checking these out so can't say I've heard all they can do. 

So, I'd suggest the dedicated circuits to begin.  They can cost very little depending upon how long the run is, etc.  Then I'd try the PEs.  Give them 10 days to be most effective.  Lots of info about these on an industry thread.  I don't believe these two measure are very system dependent so should work for lots of folks. 

Phil

Hi Phil, have you tried Hammond Chokes with your PE's? The two seem to have synergy together. I'm using 2 193M Hammond Chokes tied together and plugged into my dedicated duplex in parallel with my BPT that has a PE IV in series. Sound stage deepened, bass really perked up and the video even popped. If it wasn't for the DynamiCaps on my BPT duplexes that are used for "isolation", I would be using a Hammond 193L / PE combo on all 5 BPT duplexes. These chokes are a very affordable isolation technique, highly recommended by Alan Maher. 


Cheers,
Robin

[Phil]

Hi Robin,
No, I haven't tried that.   Can you explain more about the setup?  Is the BPT plugged into the top of the duplex and the PE in the bottom?  Where does the choke go?  I'm a little slow with this stuff.

Phil

[Occam]

.... These chokes are a very affordable isolation technique, highly recommended by Alan Maher. 

Robin,

Please, please, please stop, you're making me cry. 
Its downright embarrassing.

Neither a choke or capacitors across a line (hot to neutral) does squat for isolating components from each other on the same mains circuit. Well actually, the parasitic inductance of the existing wiring linking the outlets might provide a db of isolation.

The only way (save for the inductive elements already in your components PSs, typically in the form of transformers) is to provide series impedance to 'stand off' the components from each other, either via resistance, which isn't practical for all but the very lowest power components, or a series inductance which provides a frequency dependant reactive impedance. I'm not saying that Alan Mahler's products don't provide subjective benefits, just that claims of isolation are pure unadulterated twaddle. He has been asked repeatedly to substantiate these nonsensical claims, and when he doesn't just delete the referenced posts, just move on with his silliness.  No attenuation graphs, no nuth'n to back his flights of fancy.

Please stop your tiff with BrianM (the misinformed vs. the uninformed), it makes those who find power conditioning beneficial (even Alan Maher's products) look ridiculous.

FWIW

[BrianM]

Please stop your tiff with BrianM (the misinformed vs. the uninformed), it makes those who find power conditioning beneficial (even Alan Maher's products) look ridiculous.

Yo Occam, if you find yourself looking ridiculous, it shouldn't be through anything I've gone and said.  As for being uninformed, guilty as charged.  Why? because no one who buys into this stuff, as you just so ably pointed out, is...what's the word...informative! when uninformed people like me inquire into it.

[satfrat]

Hi Robin,
No, I haven't tried that.   Can you explain more about the setup?  Is the BPT plugged into the top of the duplex and the PE in the bottom?  Where does the choke go?  I'm a little slow with this stuff.

Phil

No slower than myself Phil,,, and that's a fact.   OK, I have the BPT in the bottom outlet and the choke in the top outlet, this puts the choke in parallel with the BPT, and I will have a 20A IEC Liberator cord(it's in the mail) on the back of the BPT with a PE IV in series. These chokes come with an 8" set of lead wires, 1 wire being slightly longer than the other. It's just a matter of connecting an AC plug to the 2 wires, the longer being the hot (AC plug's narrow pin) and NO ground connection. With my placement, 8" didn't cut it so I simply used an old lampshade cord which had a white line on the hot side of the cord so it was an easy install. The Hammond 193M is twice the size of the 193L which most folks are using to isolate each component. With a component hookup , it's preferable to have the choke as close to the component as possible so you would have your component plugged into the top outlet and a PE in the lower outlet. Ideally you'd use an IEC Liberator cord on the end of the component and the choke plugged into that. I hope I have this right but if I don't, you have a general idea and experiemnting with location is half the fun anyways.

Hope this layman's explanation helps.  

Cheers,
Robin

[satfrat]

The same applies to you too Occum.

[*Scotty*]

Robin,Occam is right,the Hammond Chokes do not give you any isolation. What you and Alan have re-discovered is the slave inductor. I have been using old transformers with the secondary taped up and plugged into the wall in parallel with my front end and my power amp for nearly 20 years. I have a 15lb. E core transformer on the front end and two 22lb. E core transformers in parallel with my power amp.
When you have a large inductor in parallel with your load it stores electrical energy in the form of a magnetic field in the core of the inductor.
When there is a demand for current from the wall to the component, a power amp for example, reproducing a large transient, the voltage sags just a little. As this happens the magnetic field in the inductor collapses and current is supplied to the line which helps reduce the voltage sag. This all happens at nearly the speed of light. In a nutshell the slave inductor acts like the coil in your car, when the magnetic field collapses in it out squirts electricity. This is similar to having a much larger transformer in the power supply of your equipment. A slave inductor may help to reduce the minute to minute voltage variations in your power under a no load condition but it will be useless in long term under or over-voltage conditions.
These inductors are doing nothing to remove garbage from the electrical power supplied to you.
Scotty

[satfrat]

Robin,Occam is right,the Hammond Chokes do not give you any isolation. What you and Alan have re-discovered is the slave inductor. I have been using old transformers with the secondary taped up and plugged into the wall in parallel with my front end and my power amp for nearly 20 years. I have a 15lb. E core transformer on the front end and two 22lb. E core transformers in parallel with my power amp.
When you have a large inductor in parallel with your load it stores electrical energy in the form of a magnetic field in the core of the inductor.
When there is a demand for current from the wall to the component, a power amp for example, reproducing a large transient, the voltage sags just a little. As this happens the magnetic field in the inductor collapses and current is supplied to the line which helps reduce the voltage sag. This all happens at nearly the speed of light. In a nutshell the slave inductor acts like the coil in your car, when the magnetic field collapses in it out squirts electricity. This is similar to having a much larger transformer in the power supply of your equipment. A slave inductor may help to reduce the minute to minute voltage variations in your power under a no load condition but it will be useless in long term under or over-voltage conditions.
These inductors are doing nothing to remove garbage from the electrical power supplied to you.
Scotty

Thank you for the explanation without an attitude Scotty. 

[NewBuyer]

...These inductors are doing nothing to remove garbage from the electrical power supplied to you.
Scotty

In this forum thread, shunting of line high frequency to ground is claimed. Is this shunting behavior also a valid effect, like the power factor correction?

[Huck]

Hi Robin,
No, I haven't tried that.   Can you explain more about the setup?  Is the BPT plugged into the top of the duplex and the PE in the bottom?  Where does the choke go?  I'm a little slow with this stuff.

Phil

No slower than myself Phil,,, and that's a fact.   OK, I have the BPT in the bottom outlet and the choke in the top outlet, this puts the choke in parallel with the BPT, and I will have a 20A IEC Liberator cord(it's in the mail) on the back of the BPT with a PE IV in series. These chokes come with an 8" set of lead wires, 1 wire being slightly longer than the other. It's just a matter of connecting an AC plug to the 2 wires, the longer being the hot (AC plug's wide pin) and NO ground connection. With my placement, 8" didn't cut it so I simply used an old lampshade cord which had a white line on the hot side of the cord so it was an easy install. The Hammond 193M is twice the size of the 193L which most folks are using to isolate each component. With a component hookup , it's preferable to have the choke as close to the component as possible so you would have your component plugged into the top outlet and a PE in the lower outlet. Ideally you'd use an IEC Liberator cord on the end of the component and the choke plugged into that. I hope I have this right but if I don't, you have a general idea and experiemnting with location is half the fun anyways.

Hope this layman's explanation helps.  

Cheers,
Robin

Hi Robin: I just wanted to check something...that being where you said that the longer wiring being the hot (AC plugs wide pin). Every receptacle in my house is wired so the "narrow" blade is the HOT and the wider blade is "NEUTRAL". I am not questioning your wiring hook-up...I just wanna know if my house is wired correctly...that being wide prong is "neutral" and narrow prong being "hot".Hope someone can clear this up for me! Thanks, Huck

[satfrat]

Hi Robin,
No, I haven't tried that.   Can you explain more about the setup?  Is the BPT plugged into the top of the duplex and the PE in the bottom?  Where does the choke go?  I'm a little slow with this stuff.

Phil

No slower than myself Phil,,, and that's a fact.   OK, I have the BPT in the bottom outlet and the choke in the top outlet, this puts the choke in parallel with the BPT, and I will have a 20A IEC Liberator cord(it's in the mail) on the back of the BPT with a PE IV in series. These chokes come with an 8" set of lead wires, 1 wire being slightly longer than the other. It's just a matter of connecting an AC plug to the 2 wires, the longer being the hot (AC plug's wide pin) and NO ground connection. With my placement, 8" didn't cut it so I simply used an old lampshade cord which had a white line on the hot side of the cord so it was an easy install. The Hammond 193M is twice the size of the 193L which most folks are using to isolate each component. With a component hookup , it's preferable to have the choke as close to the component as possible so you would have your component plugged into the top outlet and a PE in the lower outlet. Ideally you'd use an IEC Liberator cord on the end of the component and the choke plugged into that. I hope I have this right but if I don't, you have a general idea and experiemnting with location is half the fun anyways.

Hope this layman's explanation helps.  

Cheers,
Robin

Hi Robin: I just wanted to check something...that being where you said that the longer wiring being the hot (AC plugs wide pin). Every receptacle in my house is wired so the "narrow" blade is the HOT and the wider blade is "NEUTRAL". I am not questioning your wiring hook-up...I just wanna know if my house is wired correctly...that being wide prong is "neutral" and narrow prong being "hot".Hope someone can clear this up for me! Thanks, Huck

Yep Huck, you're right and I made the correction in my post.  Lucky thing it doesn't make a difference which way theses chokes are wired. But thanks for being respectful, I appreciate it. 


Cheers,
Robin

[*Scotty*]

NewBuyer,I would want to see test results proving that a big ole inductor connected across the line in parallel with the load acts as a low impedance path to ground for high frequency noise. This is a claim for filtration that is no different than that made by other manufacturers of power supply filtering products. It should be accompanied by the same proof of performance that other companies who make these sort of claims provide.
I would suggest that you ask questions about how power filtration products work in the Lab forum. Occam has a good handle on power filters and might be inclined to explain in more detail how high frequency noise reduction can be effectively accomplished and the basic mechanisms involved.
Scotty

[michaelv]

i have PS Audio UPC-200 ( all receptacles as well as IEC replaced with Furutech brand). Since UPC-200 can  isolate the two duplexes into two separate zones with a switch, i connect 193L to each duplex.

PE IV is at the wall outlet where power cord from UPC-200 goes in. Another PE is at another wall outlet in the same circuit.

Before adding these filter things....i replaced wall outlet with Oyaide XXX-SWO and i could hear an improvement. Now, it's even better to my ear.  I'm no technical person, but i trust my ear. I believe my system can be better if i can add more PE + chokes, but my budget is not allowed at this time.

[TONEPUB]

Use your ears. 

Buy the one that does the least harm to the signal, cleans up the
background noise and does not limit dynamics.

So far after using almost all of them on the market, Running
Springs still gets my vote....

[Paul_Bui]

. Now, it's even better to my ear.  I'm no technical person, but i trust my ear. I believe my system can be better if i can add more PE + chokes...

Michael, I agree.

[satfrat]

. Now, it's even better to my ear.  I'm no technical person, but i trust my ear. I believe my system can be better if i can add more PE + chokes...

Michael, I agree.

Me too.  aa

[Geardaddy]

I am awaiting a PLC from Intuitive Design which according to a friend of a friend is smoking good ("made a $100 Sony sound like a Wadia...").  Dale Pitcher had his hand in designing the original Hydra and also has experience working on industrial conditioner designs.  We will see.  I will let everyone know once I have it dialed into my rig....

[Danny Richie]

I am currently using a Dodd Audio balance power supply in my system. I love that thing. I'll never not have one in my system.

I know of a pretty good group of guys that have compared the Dodd to a bunch of others and I have compared it to a few myself. The Dodd has yet to be bettered that I know of.

It would be well worth your considerations.