[zmanbands]

Where in your system/home have you used hammond chokes and gotten a meaningful sound benefit?

[satfrat]

I'd like to add to the list of questions what size chokes are you using? There was a very meaningful discussion on this topic a while back and it would be nice to see how it has progressed in your systems,, if indeed it progressed at all.    There's been some talk of using 193M chokes which are twice the size of the 193L on the dedicated circuit duplex. Then again, some are doubling up on these 10lb 193M chokes in an AC y-cord at the dedicated duplex. Anyone doing this yet? 

Cheers,
Robin

[satfrat]

I now have a pair of 193M Hammond chokes tied togther and plugged in parallel with my BPT on my dedicated circuit. i tried using 1 choke at a time because of the fact my BPT has .047 DynamiCaps on top of each of the 5 duplex outlets for what i'm told is isolation/filtering purposes. I was also told that chokes & capacitors of this size don't go good togther. Each time I added a 193M choke tho, my bass would immediately tighten up and the audio would initially become bright/brittle. that brightness would soon go away tho leaving the bss as the really only noticable benefit. Even with two 193M chokes on this only dedicated outlet, I guess I expected more. But at least I didn't end up with less. 
So when an opportunity came along to get an unused 193L choke from a member who had 1 too many chokes, I jumped on the chance to see just what i'd get from having one of these 5 Henry chokes behind my BPT. I did receive this choke yesterday, stuck an AC cord on her and plugged it into a Niam power strip that uses the last duplex behind my BPT and is plugged into an AC Liberator cord w/PE. This power strip contains only video components and AC/DC convertor boxes for exterior hard drives, modems, swtichers, power supply's, etc. My initial reaction was totally unexpected because of what I had been told but my audio and video made startling improvements.  The audio became real sharp and not just in the bass but in the highs especially. I wasn't expecting any changes in the highs but I definitely have an extended range now and in day 2 , that change hasn't gone away. The video also sharpened up which also came as a  surpirse considering all the Bybee's I have on my video(RF adapters, AC adapters, IEC adapters, Component video adapters). On day 2, the video continues to retain this additional sharpness, enough so that it makes watching this picture in a brightly lit room much better.
Now at this point, I'm not ready to jump out and buy 4 more 193L chokes for my front line components but it sure does have me thinging about it and it does give me something to think about down the line. For the moment tho, I'm done messing with my system. 

Cheers,
Robin

[*Scotty*]

satfrat,have you tried putting your 193Ms behind BPT. I would expect this might give you a good result. If the BPT restricts the current available
on transients or raises the dynamic impedance that your components would see if directly plugged into the wall outlet the chokes would offset this to
a degree. You may find that having a choke in the front of the BPT is not the best use for them.
Scotty

[satfrat]

satfrat,have you tried putting your 193Ms behind BPT. I would expect this might give you a good result. If the BPT restricts the current available
on transients or raises the dynamic impedance that your components would see if directly plugged into the wall outlet the chokes would offset this to
a degree. You may find that having a choke in the front of the BPT is not the best use for them.
Scotty

Scotty, when you say behind I take it you mean plugged directly into the BPT. Would you recommend using them togther or separating them and using 2 different duplexes for each 193M?

Personally tho and just speaking from a wall to BPT comparson, plugging all my components into the BPT, especially the 2 Butler amps, has increased the dynamics while lowering the ground noise in my system. In my system the only downside is the 1 components that's not plugged into my BPT BP-2.5. Now does the dual 193M have the most benefit in front or in the back of the BPT, looks like I'll really have to try that out to know.  I do know that there haven't been any downside having them placed where they are. I don't know what it would be like to say having one 193M choke sharing a duplex with each of my 2 Butler amps,,,, or having a dual 193M setup sharing a BPT duplex wiith my main front speakers Butler amp. Or maybe better yet have one 193M in front and one 193M in the back of the BPT? This could be a good way to find out of you're right about the loacation of my dual 193M chokes or if maybe I need to balance out the dual 193M chokes in front of the BPT with 5 193L chokes behind the BPT. (20 Henry's in front vs 25 Henry's in the back of the BPT???)

Thanks for giving me something to think about and listen to Scotty. 

Cheers,
Robin

[alanmaher]

Robin

The choke responds to the BPT the same way the PE response, meaning...it is important to balance both sides of the transformer.  Try this....Put 1 - 193M on the primary side (iec inlet) of the BPT, and place 1 - 193M on the secondary (outlets).  The chokes benefit is local, so try to find the rear duplex that offers the system the maximum benefit.  For this experiment do not remove the 193L from the power strip.  In my set up I have 1 - 193L per rear duplex and a couple extra for high noise components (HTPC and LCD Display). 

The benefit behind the choke idea is to lower ringing harmonics.  It does not lower ringing harmonics of the circuit, but instead a particular application.  The power strip is considered one application.  The BPT main cable is also considered one application.  In the case of the power cord, the choke lowers the ringing harmonic of the cable, which is why I suggest adding them across the iec rather than placing them at the wall.  The choke at the wall does a great job of lowering the ringing harmonic of the duplex, but offers very little for the power cord...which is why folks claim triple effect at the component inlet over the wall.

[satfrat]

Robin

The choke responds to the BPT the same way the PE response, meaning...it is important to balance both sides of the transformer.  Try this....Put 1 - 193M on the primary side (iec inlet) of the BPT, and place 1 - 193M on the secondary (outlets).  The chokes benefit is local, so try to find the rear duplex that offers the system the maximum benefit.  For this experiment do not remove the 193L from the power strip.  In my set up I have 1 - 193L per rear duplex and a couple extra for high noise components (HTPC and LCD Display). 

The benefit behind the choke idea is to lower ringing harmonics.  It does not lower ringing harmonics of the circuit, but instead a particular application.  The power strip is considered one application.  The BPT main cable is also considered one application.  In the case of the power cord, the choke lowers the ringing harmonic of the cable, which is why I suggest adding them across the iec rather than placing them at the wall.  The choke at the wall does a great job of lowering the ringing harmonic of the duplex, but offers very little for the power cord...which is why folks claim triple effect at the component inlet over the wall.

On the back of the BPT, I now have w/ AC Liberator cords on each, main Butler 3150 w/PE IV,,,, rear Butler 3150 w/PE,,,, Sunfire TG4 processor w/PE II,,,, HTPC w/PE,,,,,, power strip w/PE and 193L plugged into strip.

I have another PE IV plugged into BPT IEC Liberator off the power cord. I'll switch this PE IV with one of the 193M chokes at the dedicated circuit. You recommend the other 193M going onto an IEC Liberator at the back of the BPT. The HTPC is the next to the last component and the last IEC component. Considering the crap that's probably immigrating from this computer, would this be a good place for the 193M or would it be better served on a front line component? My HTPC is my only music source.

Thanks Alan, it's all been positive at this point but the 193L on the power strip definitely made the biggest statement. 

Cheers,
Robin

[alanmaher]

Start with the HTPC duplex....

At the wall this is how I would do it....plug the PE IV into the wall duplex that shares the BPT power cord.  Plug the 193M into the iec liberator.  Remember what I said....always place the PE series before the choke when dealing with the primary side of your BPT.  The secondary doesn't care, plug the choke and PE into the same duplex for max benefit.  The component end of your power cord should be tailored for that particular component.  Some components will respond well to the choke, and others will enjoy the PE.

[satfrat]

Start with the HTPC duplex....

At the wall this is how I would do it....plug the PE IV into the wall duplex that shares the BPT power cord.  Plug the 193M into the iec liberator.  Remember what I said....always place the PE series before the choke when dealing with the primary side of your BPT.  The secondary doesn't care, plug the choke and PE into the same duplex for max benefit.  The component end of your power cord should be tailored for that particular component.  Some components will respond well to the choke, and others will enjoy the PE.

Got it! It doesn't get much clearer than that. 

[satfrat]

Well I made the move this morning, one 193M now resides at the IEC terminal of the BPT while the other 193M is plugged in parallel with my HTPC behind the BPT (until I can get an IEC Liberator cord). Intial impressions after a couple of hours,,,, looks like both Scotty & Alan have a better grasp of these chokes than I do (surprise/surprise ), the audio improvements were immense.  Bass got deeper & taunt, the whole audio band took a clarity bath with the dynamics going thru the roof, but not at the expense of listening fatique. If this continues to improve over the days or if it'll just stay the same as it now is, it looks like I'll be ordering 3 more 193L chokes & 3 more IEC Liberator cords for my main line components. Quite simply an incredible tweak for PR owners. 

Thanks guys! 

Cheers,
Robin

ps,,,, Alan don't you have dual 193M transformers in front of your power conditioning (at the wall?), if so what's your reasoning for doing this?

[*Scotty*]

 You get what you get instantly,there is no break in or warm up. Immediate gratification is hard to come by in this hobby but this is one of those instances. What has not been mentioned yet is that there is a point of sharply diminishing returns concerning chokes or slave inductors.
After a certain number chokes or a certain amount of mH of inductance is placed in parallel with the load,amp, preamp,etc., you will cease to hear an improvement. A Hammond 193M is $62.61 plus at least $10 to $15 shipping or more depending on location. One of these on the the power strip of your front end plus sources is on should about do the job as these components are low current devices. Two 193Ms plugged into the same outlet as your power amp should be enough unless you have a very high power amp with a badly under designed power supply. At this point you have more than $200 into this tweak, at a certain point you are much better off purchasing a better sounding piece of gear. A cost effective way to achieve the same result is to find some large used transformers. I have used surplus transformers for this application for about the last 20 years. Their effectiveness is a function of weight with 10lbs. being the point at which you hear a substantial effect from placing the transformer primary in parallel with the load. My system has about 50lbs. of transformers in it,a 15lb. on the power strip for the front end and two 22lb transformers plugged into the same outlet as the power amp. This is a good sounding tweak to me and if you can do it with surplus transformers at little cost it's a no brainer.
Scotty
 satfrat, I don't know how you are connecting your 193M's into your circuits but I would advise using as short a leads as possible. I have mine connected with about a foot of 12 gauge wire. You don't want to listen to a powercord when you don't have to.  I don't know if it is possible to do with your BPT but you might get a further improvement if you can place both 193M after the BPT in parallel with your Butler amps as they are the load and not the BPT.

[satfrat]

Scotty I'm using about 14" of lampshade cord, nothing fancy. You can get two 193M Hammonds at tubesandmore.com for $52.30 each or $104.60. 


Cheers,
Robin

edit: free handling over $99(you save $2.50), no free shipping

[kyrill]

ppl my english is not my mother tongue so i have to decipher what you mean

may i offer these questions?
1) what is the functional difference between the hammond 193 and the Felicia ( extensively covered in the LAB forum) except different Henry value and the Felica has caps added?
2) Why dont you add filter caps à la`Felicia to the Hammonds?
3) the dc resistance of the 193M is 63 ohm, doen't this negatively effect the "quickness" of the poweramps pws to get current as fast as possible for certain transients in music?
4) what does paralell to the load ( a pwr amp for instance mean?) how do i connect it then? it seems the IEC of the pwramps is connected to the hammond which on its turn is connected to a wall outlet or conditioner outlet and seperate from this the amp is connected to a powerbar/conditioner- or to the wall-outlet?

or the hammond 193 m is for tube amps? the amperage is so low
5) What is a PE? Alan Mahler power enhancer? Or is every parallel caps in a box called a PE?
thx

[*Scotty*]

1and2]The Felicia is a balanced power transformer and it actually removes noise from the power line quite effectively. The Hammond does not demonstrably
remove noise it does however store some electrical energy as a magnetic field in its' core which can be released when the load in the process of pulling current from the wall causes the voltage to sag on an instantaneous basis.
3]The DC resistance of the choke is not a good thing it would be better if it was orders of magnitude lower.
4]The Hammond is connected to the to same outlet the power amp is by plugging it into the wall outlet making a connection to hot and neutral. It could also be connected to the power cord at the IEC end which would put it that much closer to the power amp. The Hammonds' amperage rating reflects its' current through-put rating.  Chokes like the Hammond 193 M are designed for power supply filtering in tube gear in a L filter or pi filter configuration where they are in series with output of the secondary of the power supply transformer. These chokes are not intended to be used as a slave inductor connected to the power line in parallel with a load. It does appear that there is a positive sonic benefit to using them in this fashion however.
5] I have no idea for certain what is in the Alan Mahler PE. At a guess it looks like it may have a choke of some size in it in addition to some capacitors.
This question may be better answered by Occam,hopefully he will contribute some more info particularly concerning Felicia vs the Hammond and peripherally the Alan Mahler PE.
Scotty

[satfrat]

Frankly I think the DIY conditioners from the Lab and Alan Maher's PE could work quite well together. I only say this cuz there are many documentations of Alan's PE's working with all sorts of power conditioners with perceived sonic benefits as have the combination of Hammond chokes & PE's in the same power line/cord. Alan himself uses isolation(or balanced?) transformers along with Quantum quartz conditioners with his chokes & PE's,,, as do I. According to Alan, the difference between using a 193M instead of a 193L is just more of the same benefits,,,,  like doubling up of 2 193L chokes. I'm presently pressing Scotty's comments that too many chokes will diminish the chokes benefits.  I will be placing a choke & PE on every component in my system, with a 193M choke in front of my BPT to balance out the inductance. I will be placing 193M chokes on the IEC terminals of my 2 Butler amps and my HTPC. I will be placing 193L chokes on my Sunfire porcessor, DirecTv HD DVR receiver, Sony XBR CRT tv, and a 9 outlet Niam power strip. I don't have room on my rack for these chokes so I'll need to place them on the floora nd run lampshade cord to the IEC terminals, I don't have a choice. If the benefit coninue to compound w/o any diminishing effects, I may mount the chokes o the wall so I can shorten the length of the cords. In all, I'll be using 4 193M and 4 193L Hammond chokes. I will post what I gain,,, or lose from all this. 

Cheers,
Robin

[*Scotty*]

satfrat, Too many chokes don't diminish the chokes benefits. What I said was that after a certain number of chokes is reached that are in parallel with your components you will cease to hear any improvement in sound quality from your system. You can put as many chokes in your house as you want but after a certain point you will be spending money that could be better applied to purchasing better components.
safrat, are your Sunfire porcessor, DirecTv HD DVR receiver, Sony XBR CRT tv all on the same circuit, if they are I would try a single 193M in parallel with them. If they are all in circuits isolated from one another by filters than individual 193Ls may be required for best results. If you are going to set these chokes on the floor you might as well connect them to the receptacle that the components are plugged into as that will facilitate a heavier guage connection to the power line and the component.
Scotty

[satfrat]

satfrat, Too many chokes don't diminish the chokes benefits. What I said was that after a certain number of chokes is reached that are in parallel with your components you will cease to hear any improvement in sound quality from your system. You can put as many chokes in your house as you want but after a certain point you will be spending money that could be better applied to purchasing better components.
safrat, are your Sunfire porcessor, DirecTv HD DVR receiver, Sony XBR CRT tv all on the same circuit, if they are I would try a single 193M in parallel with them. If they are all in circuits isolated from one another by filters than individual 193Ls may be required for best results. If you are going to set these chokes on the floor you might as well connect them to the receptacle that the components are plugged into as that will facilitate a heavier guage connection to the power line and the component.
Scotty

Well then Scotty, that's even better that there will be no diminishing effects, in fact that's awesome.  But as usual, I'll trust my ears and I'll hear what I hear... but I apprciate your imput Scotty.  a\ll the components you listed are plugged directly into the BPT and they'll see their own PE/choke. I do have a 9 outlet power strip that has a PE & a 193L choke and that mostly holds the DC Converter power supplys, free to air DVB satellite receiver, 4DTV satellite receiver, satellite HD deacoder and Force XL subwoofer. If there is one thing I'dlike to do is rip that captive power cord off the Force XL and install an IEC terminal. I have a Flavor 2 power cord with that sub's name on it, I really need to do that so I can put a 193L choke on that IEC terminal also. 

Scotty, everything in my system, both audio & video is on the same circuit,,,, the BPT circuit. I leave nothing out,,, not ever the DC converter boxes for my hrad drives,modems, power supplys, etc. And as i've said numerous times, I've never experienced limiting dynamics from my 2 Butler amps from doing so. 

I know this is all overkill Scotty but you're talking to someone with 27 Bybees, 14 Z-Sleeves, 13 Maher PE's, 3 Hammond chokes (soon to be 8  ), 7 Ridge Street Z-der Blocks,,,,,, and who has had his whole system (minus the HTPC) cryogenically treated. I am intimate with overkill,,,, and I'm also 56 and can see brickwall acomin'. So I say WTF,,,, go for it! YMMV. 

Cheers,
Robin

[*Scotty*]

satfrat, an interesting experiment occurred to me reading you last post. I wonder what you would hear if all of the Z-Sleeves and bybees were removed from your system and only BPT,the PEs and the chokes were used in your system. There may be difference in system dynamics as a result.
The subwoofer is a high current device and would benefit from a 193M or 2 193Ls.
I might have invested in a different processor rather than commit that much financial resources towards external power treatments.
Different strokes for different folks.
Scotty

[satfrat]

satfrat, an interesting experiment occurred to me reading you last post. I wonder what you would hear if all of the Z-Sleeves and bybees were removed from your system and only BPT,the PEs and the chokes were used in your system. There may be difference in system dynamics as a result.
The subwoofer is a high current device and would benefit from a 193M or 2 193Ls.
I might have invested in a different processor rather than commit that much financial resources towards external power treatments.
Different strokes for different folks.
Scotty

WHATEVER!

[satfrat]

I got my chokes today and I ran short of 2 AC plugs & an IEC Liberator to have them in the way I want them but I do have them all in and my video is simply spectacular,,,, it's past using the words incredible or awesome.    I was told you could have too many chokes,,,, well unless the effect diminish as things settle in, I ain't believing it. I've got Bybees on every video cable in my system including 3 at the tv on the Component cable with 2 Z-Sleeves, 2 on the coax cables behind the DirecTv receiver and a pair of large Bybees on both ends of my AC power cord. The picture was good,,,, it's much better with a 193L choke at the Sony's IEC terminal, before the Bybee IEC adapter..
I was able to use what little space I had on the rack with the use of Radio Shacks Super Grip tape(like velcro but made out of plastic snaps for like 10 times the gripping power). That tape even held up under the weight of the 10lb 193M chokes. I was able to redo the lampshade cords so now I have AC plugs connected directly to the choke leads like Alan recommends. I wholeheartedly recommend placing a 193L choke at the entry point of every component  and using 193M chokes with the higher power draw components like amps, computers and in front of power conditioners. 
As Alan Maher also recommends and I have done, place in series PE's at the AC plug of every component, conditioner, appliance, motor, and circuit in your home,,,, ideally that is. 

AS it stands now and I hope it doesn't diminish as things settle down in the next few days, my audio soundstage has never sounded better. The sound stage is quarry deep and the notes are as extended as I've ever experience in ANY system I've heard. There's no listening fatigue whatsoever and hopefully it'll stay that way down the road. 

Hammond Chokes 193 series, and Alan Maher PE series are some of the best power conditioning tools I've ever encountered and I've tried/and use quite a few conditioning tools. 

Cheers,
Robin