[lcrim]

I am simply not familiar with this line of cartridges but the on line reviews make them sound very promising.  I keep getting fatigued by the ringing that seems to part of the LOMC experience.  The airiness and the more holographic image and big sound stage are good things but the ringing has begun to bother me a lot.  Can anyone share their thoughts or especially their experience on this subject.

[twitch54]

How certian are you with respect to your room enviroment, acoustcally speaking ??

[lcrim]

The room's treated with EighthNerve Value Pack w/ additional triangles.  Using a Stanton/KAB Trackmaster II MM cartridge, the ringing is not present.  Also using digital  (SB3 digital out to SN TubeDac+) the room is not an issue. The ringing is not an issue w/ my daughter or girlfriend but it does get to me.  I'd like to try a high quality MM but not the Cartridge Man or any Grado's because of their poor tracking.

[TheChairGuy]

Have you tried a Grado on your Technics...with fluid damped tonearm, et al?  It's pretty much the starter recipe for fully enjoying them.  The next step is to change the elliptical to line stylus....the very poor tracking issue is mostly ended this way.

Add a wad of plast-i-clay between it and the headshell and you'll gain further sonics.  Clean your records with a RCM (I think you do already)

Add the van Alstine Longhorn and you might find it to a more than adequate tracker.

It'll smoke any Stanton that I know of in several ways once these simple matters are done.

Then, you too can sell a Grado for $1200.00 like TheCartridgeMan    Or discount them and sell them for $900 

The cost to try is only $40 for Grado Black (the shibata will set you back more of course)

John

[lcrim]

Grado cartridges have a well earned reputation for poor tracking.  They're also not shielded and therefore tend to pick up RFI and EMI.  Those are real drawbacks in a phono cartridge.  Why not start out w/o those drawbacks?  I'm aware that many folks love them, I just don't understand the attraction.
What about the Clearaudio lineup?  Where's the sweet spot for performance VS price?

[bacobits1]

Ringing? Usually if you are getting a ringing it may be cartridge loading.
I don't get any ringing effect with any of the MC's I have here. Interesting.
I would not buy a Grado for all the problems that have been mentioned everywhere.

How about the Ortofon M Series, AT 440, Denon 160?
Den

[Wayner]

LPGear still has the AT for under $100. I like mine in the SL-1200.

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

Larry,

MANY cartridges are unshielded...but almost all cartridges are overdamped (moving coils from necessity, otherwise they would be totally intolerable).  One pays handsome prices for the handmade MC's as gentle damping (aka, tweeking) is applied by it's master makers.  I'm not knocking the breed, I hear the good stuff form them too, I just hear a lot of the not-so-good stuff...as do you, I think, now 

The Grado's are sensibly damped and this causes microphony.  Your fluid damped arm trough will tame much of that (as will a dot of 1000cst on the coils)...and the Longhorn (and a line stylus) will make for passable tracking.  Damping internally makes for a quieter, less microphonic electro-mechanical transducer, but it indiscriminately damps the music out, too.

I listen to mine a lot and keep asking myself.....'now what am I supposed to be missing if I try a more expensive cartridge'? 

I make zero endorsing them as I do, and I don't suggest them for everyone...but a fluid damped arm is a considerable help in getting them to sound wonderful.

The Clearaudio's are apparently Audio Technica made...not even the dual magnet series....they are based on the AT95.  The very knowledgeable 'mosin' exposed this roose a couple years ago:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/52/524951.html

So if your gonna' go for the AT (no bad choice at all) - go for the AT440MLa or better AT150MLX or go cheap to try it with the AT95HE from LPGear.

btw, price increase on Grado's on February 1  :

Grado Labs Price Increase!
Grado Labs is announcing its very first price increase ever! Effective February 1, 2008, Grado will increase prices on the Prestige Series Phono Cartridges and Replacement Prestige Styli. (This does not affect Grado Reference or Statement Series Cartridges.)

Order Now & Save! Don't Delay, prices are going up this Friday, February 1, 2008 (according to The Elusive Disc)!

Grado Prestige Cartridges (all cartridge prices are listed in black, price increase is listed in red)
Grado Prestige Black $40 Save $20!    
Grado Prestige Green $60 Save $20!    
Grado Prestige Blue $80 Save $30!    
Grado Prestige Red $110 Save $30!    
Grado Prestige Silver $150 Save $40!    
Grado Prestige Gold $180 Save $40!    

Many of it's known drawbacks can be fixed (it's fairly miserable that they must, however, I must admit).  But, a fluid damped arm gives you a serious leg-up on the known problems.  On my prior JVC, when I fashioned my homebrew trough and filled it with 30000 cst silicone, the Grado zoomed from also-ran to top-o-the-heap for me. 

So profound was the difference with fluid damping 

[Derockster]

I simply want to say on my technics sp 25 turtable with Sme series 3 tonearm and damping trough I experience no tracking issues with my Grado Green cartridge.Mine's modified as per advised by TCG.I ask myself the same question where do I go from here in regards to cartridges.When my 1200 arrives I will be trying an Audio Technica 150mlx on it.But for now I'm more than satisfied with my Grado Green.Warm Regards Derockster

[TheChairGuy]

Right on, Derockster.

At only 45mh of inductance, cartridge resonance won't occur until well into the supersonic region (61K or some such with 150 ohms of impedance in your wiring leading to your phono preamp - 150 ohms is pretty typical for armtube, phono leads and an additional IC to your line preamp/receiver or integrated if you're using an intermediary dedicated phono stage). 

The AT440MLa has 490mh (the AT150MLX is less I think at 350mh) of inductance...even if you have it loaded right, it's resonance point is 18K or so.  You may not hear it, but this resonance will screw up what your pre-amp and amplifier is trying to achieve if not damped right and it is within the realm of theoretical hearing range 20hz-20Khz.

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

As well, lower inductance means the coil noise is lower - less details obscured. The treble on the Grado's is natural and the best I've heard, bar none. Instruments sound more like instruments than any other cartridge I own - no matter the cost.

5 mv is nice high'ish voltage - plenty of punch without undue noise from higher gain stages need apply.  45mh is embarassingly low inductance level for a MM/MI (no others even come close to it).

Larry, before you knock it - try it - as you have a fluid damped arm now...it's worth the shot at it for cheapo money.

You can thank me for being an unrelenting Grado whore after the 50 hour break-in period    I promise not to use the 'I told you so' bit 

John

[ohenry]

All the Grado ho's crawl out of the woodwork...

I had the Green (longhorned) and now have the Platinum, and both work very well with a Sumiko MMT.  I suppose it's all about the application.  The seem to be either stellar or problematic.

I really can't say anything negative once I found the proper set up.  The Grados sound "right" to me.  No hum issues either.

[Derockster]

Hey John talk about instruments sounding real.Man because of my Grado Green I'm having a love affair with Earl Klugh.Never before have I heard his guitar sound sooooooooooooooo good as I have now.Earlh Klugh playing heard it through the grapevine on his album living inside your love.Simply fantastic

[lcrim]

So Clearaudio's are really AT's in disguise.  Thanks for the info. 
I hope he doesn't mind me posting this, Woodsyi, who is a very generous man has offered to loan me his Ruby 3, so that I can hear how a really first rank LOMC compares.  It has been said on this forum that LOMC's below $1000 are compromised.  What if I fall in love with its sound? 
At any rate, I wanted to thank Rim publicly for this kind and generous act.

[TheChairGuy]

Larry - I think I'm the loudmouth that used the kinda' arbitrary $1000.00 figure for MC's....it just stands to reason that the MC needs delicate care to overcome it's physical issues by critical and perfect damping...something only a skilled craftsman can provide. 

MM/MI's are compromised electrically....so they need no hand-carassing and can be sold cheaper as a result.  Among the MM/MI crowd, however, Grado's are the least electrically compromised (better inductance and DC resistance figures at any voltage relative to other MM/MI's).

So, you achieve a fair compromise of MC and MM virtues with the Grado.

Grado's view of things (they're biased, of course): http://gradolabs.com/frameset_main.htm

In a very imperfect world of cartridges (and vinyl reproduction in general) - Grado's strike a happy compromise between both MM and MC's (especially if you have a fluid damped arm and improve it's so-so tracking performance).

Rim/woodsyi is a king, however - that much cannot be denied 

[Toka]

Definitely try an AT if you haven't yet done so...150MLX being the first choice. They have their particular sound that can work very well...but will be way too bright if not loaded correctly (be in orbit around 100pF total for the 150). AT also has two MC's (OC9 and 33PTG) that don't cost a ton and sound great as well.

Clearaudio has an MM (Maestro? Too lazy to look it up) that gets rave reviews, but I know not of its pedigree/performance. Think its around $1K.

Or maybe try a Denon too?

[blakep]

On top of the aforementioned AT 95 in disguise, you also have this:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/71/712857.html

as one of Clearaudio's recent offerings. Interesting that the price has already dropped 20%. Probably has to do with the fact that you can do an ebony body 103 or 103R for yourself for half or less than half of their now reduced price. This kind of stuff really makes you wonder about the high end cartridge market and even more specifically about Clearaudio.

Based on this, I'd be inclined just to start out looking at the AT or Denon products as previously mentioned. Then again, I have two cartridges in the house: an AT 120E and an ebony bodied 103R. So I'm a little biased .

[TheChairGuy]

Among MC makers today, likely only AT, Denon and Ortofon (maybe Goldring, Dynavector?) have enough mechanization and scale to keep the lid on costs ....unfortunately, a lot of what is paid to the MC  hand crafted masters is for their pricey labor (that could partly be replicated by very accurate machines).

When there were 10 million cartridges a year made 20+ years ago, there was a lot more competition and saner pricing than now, a market of less than a few hundred thousand yearly now.  A smaller portion still of (generally) pricey Moving Coils make it worse still for lovers of those cartridges.

There is no greater bullcrap in audio than cartridge lore I think......at least neck and neck with wire issues.  Bother certainly matter - it's just too much mysticism covering up high markups and mechanical and electrical realities in both games I think

John

[BobM]

Wasn't this thread supposed to be about Clearaudio cartridges? 

First - no personal experience with Clearaudio's, but I did a fair bit of research into MC's before I decided to go the way I did. According to others, the Clearaudio's are fairly light sounding (definitely the polar opposite of the Grado's). Benz's are warmer, as are Dynavector's. But you're right, the consensus was the "less expensive" ones seem to have fatal flaws in them and you have to go up the chain to get the balance right.

That's why I went with a Dynavector 20X. It seems to get the balance correct and give me the warmth and extension at the same time. No, it can't compete with the big guns, but it saved me that extra $1000-1500 that me research led me to believe I had to spend to skip over the bad ones & get the same balance plus the extra detailed extension that MC's are famous for.

Good luck,
Bob

[Derockster]

Hey John what's the greatest tracking force you've used with your Grado Green?I'm tracking a 2grams and man does it sound gooood. It has also taken the edge off the sound of my rather large Jericho Horns.Makes me want to replace my spendors with them again.Just thought I'd share that with you.Regards Derockster

[TheChairGuy]

Never tried it THAT high....1.58grams (or at least between 1.55 and 1.60 as the Shure gauge is inexact) is what TheCartridgeMan recommends for his ersatz Grado Gold with line stylus...so that's where I have mine. 

And he's right on the money so far as I could tell.

Good that 2 grams works for you...I might try it one day - never occured to me to try it.

Sorry BobM, no Clearaudio mentioned here either 

Clearaudio, Clearaudio, Clearaudio, Clearaudio....there 5x in one post 

John