[SWG255]

Now that i've begun to rebuild my system, I'm starting to think about the current digital hi-res format war between SACD and DVD-A. i've heard that many DVD "audio" discs are mixed for multi-channel, and the stereo mix isn't discrete, but rather generated from the multi-channel mix and therefore sounds less than optimal.

Those of you with DVD-A playback gear, would you mind commenting on the playback quality of DVD-A in good old stereo?

My current listening room is not ideal for multi-channel setup, so I'l be staying in 2 channel mode for quite awhile.

Thanks.

[Marbles]

I've had DVD-A for about two years now and only have about 10 DVD-A's.

I have about 100 concert DVD-Video's.


DVD-A is not something I even think about anymore.

If you want high rez, go vinyl.....

[bubba966]

Rob Babcock is the only guy I know of around here that's actively running a DVD-A setup as he enjoys DVD-A. So hopefully he'll have some answers for you.

While I've actually got 2 DVD-A capable players (Pioneer DV-AX10 & Pioneer DV-S755Ai) I've not ever bothered to hook up the analog outs. I might though if someone brings over some software...

[Rob Babcock]

I don't listen to an immense amount of DVD-A in stereo, but the short answer is yes, it does offer an improvement, as does stereo SACD.

I just bought Brubek's, "Take Five" today; the MC & stereo are nearly identical (there's VERY little mixed to the surrounds).  The sound is amazing.

Most of the DVD-A discs I've got are pretty great in stereo.  Marbles, my collection is only about 30 discs, but I'm starting to find more discs all the time.

[Marbles]

Rob, if you like it great!  I just find instruments and vocals behind me strange.

I would rather watch the performers and hear the crowd around me.  Makes me feel like I'm at the concert.

[SWG255]

Thanks for the replies. Rob, since you listen to both DVD-A and SACD, i have to ask the loaded question; which do you prefer? Assuming you have a preference of course.

I have a pretty good SACD player and most of the SACDs i've purchased have made me very happy. I also once was a real vinyl biggot, and I agree there are advantages to vinyl when it is played back on perfectly adjusted turntable tone arm and cartridge, using pristine or very clean discs. i had all these things until one day i realized it had been over two years since I'd played a LP, so i sold the turntable, arm, cartridge, record cleaning machine and all my LPs are living in a friend's basement. He doesn't play LPs either!

So, I think my audiophile future lies squarely in the hi-res digital playback media.

It will be interesting to see what combo DVD/SACD players come along, and how good each is, especially for the money. I'm not sure I'm ready to spring for a $10,000 unit from Linn or Accuphase and i know my wife isn't ready for me to. <grin>     .

I don't listen to an immense amount of DVD-A in stereo, but the short answer is yes, it does offer an improvement, as does stereo SACD.

I just bought Brubek's, "Take Five" today; the MC & stereo are nearly identical (there's VERY little mixed to the surrounds).  The sound is amazing.

Most of the DVD-A discs I've got are pretty great in stereo.  Marbles, my collection is only about 30 discs, but I'm starting to find more discs all the time.

[Marbles]

I agree there are advantages to vinyl when it is played back on perfectly adjusted turntable tone arm and cartridge, using pristine or very clean discs. i had all these things until one day i realized it had been over two years since I'd played a LP, so i sold the turntable, arm, cartridge, record cleaning machine and all my LPs are living in a friend's basement. He doesn't play LPs either!
...

Why don't you PM or email me your friends contact info  

[Sedona Sky Sound]

It is strictly my own personal bias but I am not a big fan of DVD-A. I have the Pioneer Elite 47A in my demo room which plays just about anything. I have purchased a couple of DVD-As in the last year or so but the only one that I ever really play is The Blue Man Group: Audio. If that ever came out on SACD I am pretty sure the DVD-A function of my player would never get used.

The big problems I have with DVD-A is that discs are considerably more expensive than SACD ($22-$26 versus the $13-$17 for SACDs at the Best Buy I go to) and many cannot be played in a two-channel set-up. Some discs don't allow the music to be down-mixed. The BMG DVD-A can only be played in stereo by flipping it to side B and listening to the DVD-Video side. Gordon Goodwin's: Big Phat Band is two channel compatible but the sound is somewhat degraded. It does not come even close to matching the fidelity of most of the SACDs I have. I know several people that really like DVD-A but they only listen to it in multi-channel. If you are primarily interested in two-channel High-Res then SACD is a much better choice IMHO.

I hope that helps.  

Julian
www.sedonaskysound.com

[Rob Babcock]

Many DVD-A discs have a 2 ch version.  Now, I don't know how many SACDs you have, Julian, but a good many of mine don't have any stereo track at all.  As for the Pioneer, it's a good player, but better for DVD-A than it is for SACD.  My new Denon easily bests my old Pioneer.

I don't buy that many locally, so I haven't seen much differernce in pricing.  SACD may be slightly cheaper, but I've paid $20-25 for SACDs, too.  And many of my DVD-A's were $16.

Marbles:  I can appreciate your point of view.  Different strokes and all.  I was mostly commenting here about DVD-A in stereo.  Many of those discs have superb 2 channel tracks.

I may be boosterish one MC, but I dont' think stereo is going anywhere.  I mostly prefer old classic stereo recordings to stay in stereo, with some notable exceptions (eg. DSotM:  the MC version is just how I heard it in my head).

As for SACD vs DVD-A, I don't wanna cop out, but I'm not prepared to answere that right now.  I really love both.  I have some opinions, some of which may raise eyebrows (and some theories as to which is capable of better sound...).  Suffice it to say that my Denon sounds better than the Sony players I've heard w/SACD and as good as I've heard w/DVD-A (not that I've remotely heard it all).  And I have some real reference discs for both formats.

Some DVD-A's are amazing and some are mediocre.  Ditto for SACD.  To call the race now is like predicting the Super Bowl winner in week 4 (hint;  think a certain team in purple from the midwest...sorry, couldn't help it ), just too early to call.

But, don't hesitate to buy DVD-A's if you have a machine that'll play em.  As I said, unlike SACD, with the DVD-A you can almost always tell from the box if it has a version you can use.

Rob

[Sa-dono]

Suffice it to say that my Denon sounds better than the Sony players I've heard w/SACD and as good as I've heard w/DVD-A (not that I've remotely heard it all). And I have some real reference discs for both formats.

Which Sony players were these, if you don't mine saying? Also, this might be the time to listen and compare your Denon with bubba's AX-10. The AX-10 is supposed to be particularly good for DVD-A.

[Rob Babcock]

Knew you'd ask that!   I just can't remember; sony model #'s make my head spin.  Nothing over $1500, and then unfortunately not in the same system.  I know audio memory can be unreliable, too.  Wish I could A/B vs Brians new baby, but alas:  he lives almost two thousand miles from me.  I also wish I could take Bubba into buying a DVD-A disc to make sure the damn thing works!

[bubba966]

Wish I could A/B vs Brians new baby, but alas:  he lives almost two thousand miles from me.

2,000 miles is what's keeping you from stopping by? Quit complaining and just bring your new 2200 over.  

I'd bring my AX10 over to your place. But it's so f'in heavy (54 pounds?) that I'm not in any hurry to pull it out of my stack...

I also wish I could talk Bubba into buying a DVD-A disc to make sure the damn thing works!

As I've not bothered to ever buy a CD/MD/SACD/DVD-A/Tape/Record/8 Track/MP3/PlayTape/etc. yet, what makes you think I'll start now?  

[bubba966]

The AX-10 is supposed to be particularly good for DVD-A.

I can niether confirm or deny that.

But I can tell you it's an amazing DVD-V player & RedBook transport. I can't believe how badly it kills every other Pioneer I've ever owned/used (DV-09, DV-38A, DV-47Ai, DVL-700, DVL-909, DVL-919, DVL-91, DV-333, DV-440, DV-434). It also spanks the Sony's (9000ES, 999ES, 3300, and a few other lower end models I can't recall at the moment) I've dealt with as well in those 2 areas mentioned above.

[Rob Babcock]

I don't want to sidetrack this from the issue of 2ch sound, but I wonder how your new Pioneer would stack up picture wise to one of the new players w/DVI output?  Or did you say your Lowe doesn't have DVI input?

Maybe there's a movie soundtrack you could find on DVD-A!  I know there are a few on SACD, although I think your Pioneer converts the DSD to PCM...

[michael w]

I've had DVD-A for about two years now and only have about 10 DVD-A's.

I have about 100 concert DVD-Video's.


DVD-A is not something I even think about anymore.

If you want high rez, go vinyl.....

That succinctly sums up the current state of high resolution digital audio.

Kudos Marbles !

 

[Rob Babcock]

God bless you if you can still listen to LPs.  Right now I'm listening to Chris Thile on SACD and loving it.

[meilankev]

SWG255,

I have DVD-A capability, but I have fewer than 10 discs.  I have spent some time comparing multi-channel VS stereo playback (all my discs have a 2-channel track).  I prefer the stereo track on my system.  Of course, my 2-channel playback equipment is considerably "better" than my surround equipment.  So, I'm not a fair sample.

In terms of improvement of sound VS redbook CDs, well that's difficult to define.  Not all DVD-A discs sound the same.  Some sound no different than a well-recorded redbook CD.  Some sound much better.  Of course, not all redbook CDs sound the same either.  So, no difference there.

I also want to comment on something Marbles said earlier, about wanting the music in front of you, and not wanting music coming from unrealistic places (behind you, et al).  This echoes something I have been saying for a couple of years.  
However, I have since been educated to the "audiophile application" of multi-channel music.  And this is "venue recreation" of a given concert.  A talented recording engineer will not use the surround speakers as points where music originates.  Instead, surround speakers will be used to give "spatial information" to allow the user to more easily sense the surroundings of the concert hall of the original recording.
But of course, to get full benefit of this capability, you need a totally "dead" room, which will allow the surround speakers to do their thing.  Since I'm much more of a 2-channel guy, my room is not set up to take advantage of these multi-channel discs.
So, I understand the concept.  I even agree with the concept.  It's just not feasible for me (or anyone else who has their 2-channel system integrated into a surround sound HT).

Kevin

[audiojerry]

To call the race now is like predicting the Super Bowl winner... (hint; think a certain team in purple from the midwest...sorry, couldn't help it  ),

Based on this comment, it is obvious the man has no taste or credibility
 

But in spite of that, I am going to ask for help...
When listening to multi channel SACD disk, can the processor be set to mix down to 2 channel, or does the disk need to have a 2-channel
layer?
Similarly, if you have a 4 channel set up, can the center channel be signal be sent to the front right and left?

[JoshK]

I'll just chime in with my $.02

I have all of the above.  Vinyl, SACD, CD and DVD-A player.   I own probably a dozen and a half SACDs, would be more, but I can't find ones I am actually interested in.  I own one DVD-A and to me downmixed in stereo it isn't really any better than redbook.  I never bought another.  Plus I don't want to turn on my monitor just to play music, that is lame IMHO.   BTW, anyone want Metallica - Metallica on DVD-A? Played once.

I actually find that all the really good modern bands that I am into release their albums on LP and that they generally sound really good.  Also the Virgin Mega Store here in time square usually has a semi-decent selection of new LP releases and they are typically 30% cheaper than their CD counterpart with some exceptions.

[Doug_B]

Many DVD-A discs have a 2 ch version.  Now, I don't know how many SACDs you have, Julian, but a good many of mine don't have any stereo track at all.

I don't know where you found these SACDs, but the specification mandates that all of them have a Stereo mix. A multichannel mix is an option, as is a redbook layer. My guess is that there's a different cause to the problem of not being able to *access* the Stereo mix.

It is true that not all DVD-As have a Stereo mix. It's disconcerting to find out that some DVD-A packaging has incorrect info with respect to this item.

I find that most SACDs and DVD-As sound better than their redbook counterparts when new mastering is performed for the hi-rez disc, relative to what may have been done a number of years ago for a redbook layer. When the new mastering is also used to create a new redbook version of the music, the distinction becomes more subtle. Thus, IMHO, a good (re)mastering job is what usually counts the most in giving us high quality digital music (if you LP proponents allow me to mate these terms ).

One interesting aspect to DVD-A that I see is the cost involved to get a very good-to-excellent quality player. Since a player with DVD-A is by definition also a DVD-V player, it appears that manufacturers will typically put higher quality parts (that are necessary for high quality audio) into a player that also excels in video. Thus, to get high quality audio, you need to pay an entrance fee for high quality video. OTOH, you can get (although more typical in the past than now) a high quality SACD player without the price premium of video on top of it. Furthermore, a high quality DVD video player does not guarantee that the manufacturer didn't skip on the audio side; even if they put decent DACs inside, we know that there's more to it than that.

This is a major reason why I'll be going the mod route to replace my pitiful DVD-A player (and get high quality SACD and redbook, hopefully, to boot).

Doug