When to not bother with the vinyl version?

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When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« on: 22 Jan 2008, 04:32 am »
As a new entrant into the world of vinyl, I'm a little confused and unsure of the best way to shop for it.  I've read that if an album is recorded digitally, that getting it on vinyl is pointless.  Logically I can understand that but how in the world are you supposed to find that info?  I went into a record store today and found that album covers were very inconsistent in the information provided.  Some had the AAA/ADD/DDD coding but plenty didn't.  Certain albums get a lot of buzz for the quality of their vinyl version, like the Red Hot Chili Pepper's last album (was mastered by a different engineer, supposedly has MUCH greater dynamic range and was recorded and mastered all analog), but for so many others, I can't find any info on them online.

So what's a guy to do?  Is this is digitally mastered business dealbreaker or am I focusing too much on it?

janka

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Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #1 on: 22 Jan 2008, 03:18 pm »
It is hard info to find. Generally if something is recorded in the analog domain the album will proudly state it. Built to Spill's recent vinyl reissues are one example. One thing to consider before disregarding newer stuff mastered digitally is the bit-depth and sample rate they use in studios. They are not recording at 16/44.1 but much higher resolution rates of 24/96, 24/192 and DSD(1bit/5.4Mhz). If the vinyl releases are being derived for those masters the vinyl has the potential for better sound quality than the cd. Now if those same recording were released as DVD-A or SACD buying the vinyl could be pointless..

chosenhandle

Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #2 on: 22 Jan 2008, 04:35 pm »
I am an 'all-analog" kind of guy, but listen to Beatles Love. I think they did a great job using digital processing.

If interested in which format to buy, check around here, the nut-hut (audio asylum) and stevehoffman. There are enough people with experience in various releases to tell you what you want to know about a title.


doug s.

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Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #3 on: 22 Jan 2008, 05:04 pm »
i think it's hit or miss.  hopefully, you can find info about a specific recording before you buy it.  i wasted money buying the analog iteration of santana's "supernatural" release a few years back; it was yust as compressed as the cd.   :evil:

fortunately, i have a dbx 3bx dynamic range expander in my pre's tape loop - i can switch it in the signal path for such nasty recordings.  but, there was no reason for me to wast the extra money on the "supernatural" album...

doug s.

Wayner

Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #4 on: 22 Jan 2008, 05:44 pm »
They've been recording digitally since..80, 81 and albums were still pretty much mainstream. I think many people were listening to digital recordings and didn't know it. I think the analog motion of the stylus in the groove smoothens out even digitally mastered pressings. I also thought I read that many re-pressings have gone through Sony's DSD processing before hitting the cutting lathe. I have to check some liner notes when I get home.

Wayner

doug s.

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Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #5 on: 22 Jan 2008, 09:00 pm »
i have no problem w/digital, if the resolution is there - ie: 24/96, or better...  16/44.1 isn't quite there, imo.  i am a happy user of a deqx dsp processor/x-over, & its all digital. 

compression, on the other hand, is a different issue, & regardless of resolution, or of whether its digital or analog, if its dynamic range is compressed, (different from digital data compression), it will sound like shite, imo...

doug s.
They've been recording digitally since..80, 81 and albums were still pretty much mainstream. I think many people were listening to digital recordings and didn't know it. I think the analog motion of the stylus in the groove smoothens out even digitally mastered pressings. I also thought I read that many re-pressings have gone through Sony's DSD processing before hitting the cutting lathe. I have to check some liner notes when I get home.

Wayner

Scott F.

Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #6 on: 23 Jan 2008, 12:23 am »
The 16/44.1 thing really depends on the recording engineer. I can play some 16/44.1 recordings that will knock your socks off while others sound like hammered shit. A good example of a well recorded 16/44.1 digitally recorded piece of vinyl is Joe Jacksons Night and Day. Drop a needle on that one and you'll hear a great recording. The other thing it had going for it was they used minimal, post production processing (according to the liner notes). Like any system, the fewer pieces of gear a signal runs through, the cleaner the sound will be.

On the opposite hand, I've got a bunch of the early Denon PCM classical recordings and they sound pretty darned bad. Overall I'd say early digital recordings are a crap shoot. If you can get them cheap enough, take a chance. There will most definitely be a few gems that you'll find.

Daniel, since you are new to the vinyl arena (congrats  :thumb: ) let me make a suggestion.....more a pointer than anything. Not all vinyl is created the same. During the late 60's, 70's and early 80's when individual records were selling hundreds of thousands of copies per release, much of what you will pick up out there can sound....well, not so nifty. Now, I'm not trying to scare you off, just give you a pointer or two when you start picking out your base collection.

First, you need to do a little research on how a record is made. There are a number of sites (and video's) out there, of which I can't put my fingers on the links but I'm sure some of the other guys can help out here. Basically (and I'm going to blast through this so be prepared for me to miss a step or two and maybe some details), a lacquer is cut from the analog tapes (or digital master). From that several (metal) master stampers are made, they are called "mothers". The lacquer has a finite number of times it can be used before all of the low level resolution (plus highs and lows) are so muddled that the record sounds bad. The Mother also has a finite number of pieces of vinyl that can be stamped from it before the same happens. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but the usual number of stampings each metal master can do is around 1000 to 1500 pieces of vinyl (I'm going from memory so be easy on me).

That said, up through the mid-70's, record companies would take the very first production runs and use white labels on them, then hand them out to the radio stations as promotions. These were called White Label Promo's (WLP). They can commonly be found on eBay or any record shop. Keep in mind, these WLP's were the closest to the mother and metal master of all the production runs (until they switched stampers for a fresh one). These most often sound the best when you play them back on your rig.

Sometime during the mid-70's to save money (as its told), they stopped the process of using the white labels. In turn what they did was simply grab a sticker that said "For Promotion Only", pealed the cellophane off and stuck it on the record cover. These "Promo's" may or may not be from the first part of the production run. Often (I've found) that these promo's don't sound as good as other copies I've got in my collection.

Sound quality in vinyl can vary dramatically from production plant to production plant and label to label (often a release in the states was one label and the UK on another). People on other forums have explanations. No doubt it has something to due with the vinyl formulations but there were likely other factors that came into play like the local mastering engineers ear and playback system when he/she actually cut the lacquer locally.

Your best bet in buying vinyl is to get it as cheap as humanly possible. Avoid eBay and your local record shops as they will be the most expensive. Go for the Goodwills and Salvation Army's of the world. Flea markets are good too. Vinyl there is usually $.50 to a $1.00. Garage sales are a great place to pick up vinyl. If you don't see any, ask the owner if they have any inside that they might want to part with. They usually do. Second hand and resale shops usually have a pile or two you can root through. Be aware, the Antique Malls of the world usually have WAY overpriced vinyl. They think that just because Elvis or the Beatles put out a record it is automatically worth $50. These people are truly mis-informed.

Don't let a dusty/moldy record scare you off either. Those can easily be cleaned with some Spray and Wash and then a portable steam cleaner for deep cleaning (use distilled water in the steam cleaner). Just watch for scratches. You can't do anything with those. Scuffs usually aren't an issue on playback but a deep scratch can pull your stylus off.

For the music you want most, you're base collection of your favorite music (for me its 60's & 70 rock), I'd suggest going for the WLP's. For those you'll have to go to a record store or eBay to pick those up. You'll have to pay market value which is usually about 20% more than a regular copy but chances are it will sound better.

If you are thinking that the WLP's might be worn out by the radio stations, chances are they aren't. Stations (at least around here) used to take them home, listen for the good cuts then bring them back to the station and record them on carts (cartridges) for playback on the air. After that, the record was filed away, seldom to be played again. Now, if a private party got them after the radio station went to CD's, Lord knows what kind of shape they are in.

Oh, if you get a record that doesn't sound too terrific, try rebuying it (assuming it was one of the cheap ones). Eventually you will find a copy that was stamped close to the mother. It took me eight times before I found a super resolute copy of Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here.

Oh, MoFi's can be way over-hyped too. I've got stock releases that can sound better than MoFi's.

Oh, Oh, nearly anything that Stan Ricker mastered sounds really good (if that helps).

Again, don't let me scare you off. Don't fret about buying used vinyl. Just find a good, cheap source and most of all go out looking. Don't leave your vinyl fate to the online retailers and eBay. Those guys will certainly keep your wallet empty.




...damn, I could have made that post into an article  :roll:  :lol:
« Last Edit: 23 Jan 2008, 11:52 pm by Scott F. »

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Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #7 on: 23 Jan 2008, 02:49 am »
Damn is right!

Thanks for the info and advice.  I especially like the "cheaply as humanly possible" part, although I'm not following that too well so far.  Just spent $130 on the 30th anniversary DSOTM, Richard Thompson's The Old Kit Bag, Radiohead's In Rainbows, and RHCP's Stadium Arcadium along with a few used records on the cheap.  But this was just an initial splurge and basically experiments to hear what new quality vinyl should sound like versus used finds.  Flea markets and garage sales - along with the occasional trip into a record shop - will be my main modes of acquisition.  I suppose at $3 or less a pop I can take lots of chances, right?

lonewolfny42

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Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #8 on: 23 Jan 2008, 09:33 am »
Scott....

Great info in your post !!  8)

Quote
Oh, Oh, nearly anything that Stan Ricker mastered sounds really good (if that helps).

He has a good website.....here...

Click on "Clients" for projects that have been mastered By Stan Ricker over the past years. :thumb:

slow_down

Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #9 on: 23 Jan 2008, 01:54 pm »
That's quite an impressive list.  And he mastered the soundtrack to Death Proof!  Love or hate Tararantino, the guy chooses amazing music for his movies.

And Ricker mastered Brothers in Arms too - but unfortunately not the version I bought for $3 over the weekend.  I wonder how much better it could sound...

Legendlime

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Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #10 on: 23 Jan 2008, 03:18 pm »
That's a lot of good information. I am also kind of new the vinyl game. I've been trying to build up my collection and I have had some bad luck with ebay  :duh: but I didn't spend alot of money.

Wayner

Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #11 on: 23 Jan 2008, 04:35 pm »
I use *bay to find obscure albums that I been looking for. Last week I scored Depeche Mode, Playing the Angel 2LP for $20. Also found XTC Oranges and Lemons 2LP for a little less. That's big bucks for me but I wouldn't be able to get these any other way. My usual source is a local antique shop that has about 8k of LPs, average cost of $3-5 range, most being in VG+ to VG++ and a few NM. I have also bought a couple of collections from people in the area. I've gotten them for an average of about $.50 each, with the collections being in NM state.

Wayner  :D

twitch54

Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #12 on: 23 Jan 2008, 04:44 pm »
If you have the paitence don't discount your local Goodwill, how about "The Who" -Quadraphenia ,original, STILL sealed.......97 cents !!, yes a friend picked it up before X-mas @ our local store.

Scott F.

Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #13 on: 24 Jan 2008, 12:02 am »
.....Also found XTC Oranges and Lemons 2LP for a little less.

Hey Wayner......We're Only Making Plans for Nigel......  :thumb:

...seems we've got similar tastes in music  :green:



Wayner

Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #14 on: 24 Jan 2008, 12:32 am »
Scott,

I still got dial-up....what's that about? Is there a new Album?

Wayner

Scott F.

Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #15 on: 24 Jan 2008, 03:01 am »
Its just the old MTV video of XTC's Making Plans for Nigel. Kind of a retro cool sorta thing  :thumb:

Wayner

Re: When to not bother with the vinyl version?
« Reply #16 on: 25 Jan 2008, 12:34 am »
Just to try and finish this.....Ever hear of Dire Straights? They have a great album called Brothers In Arms. It is a full digital recording (1985) and the CD and LP are both fantastic (I have them both). Now lets hear some more arguments that digital recordings sound bad on vinyl.

Wayner  :D