Bass Control in the Listening Room

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Housteau

Bass Control in the Listening Room
« on: 29 Sep 2003, 03:17 pm »
I ran across this web site recently and have found it very interesting and confusing:

http://www.recording.org/users/acoustics/

The author explains small room acoustics in a way that makes sense, yet is opposed to a lot of the common theories of controlling bass, and/or setting up a listening room that I have been used to.  In the past J. Gordon Holt placed together several articles on setting up a proper listening space.  These are the ones that I have followed.  Here is a man with years upon years of experience in such matters.  But, in fact this other fellow here, Ethan Winer, also has years of practical experience.  Yet they both oppose each other in a complete 180 degrees.  

Basically, Mr. Holt attests to the fact that for an ideal listening space and bass response, the room must contain the bass energy and prevent it from leaking out.  Then it can be treated and controlled as necessary.  Mr. Winer on the other hand states that zero boundries, or 100% absorption preventing any bass reflections are the ideal.  Below I have copied and pasted a small section of that general article that deals with this specific issue.



BIG WAVES, SMALL ROOMS - by Ethan Winer

There is a common myth that small rooms cannot reproduce low frequencies because they are not large enough for the waves to "develop" properly. While it is true that low frequencies have very long wavelengths - for example, a 30 Hz wave is nearly 38 feet long - there is no physical reason such long waves cannot exist within a room that is much smaller than that. What defines the dimensions of a room are the wall spacing and floor-to-ceiling height. Sound waves generated within a room either pass through the room boundaries, bounce off them, or are absorbed. In fact, all three of these often apply. That is, when a sound wave strikes a wall some of its energy may be reflected, some may be absorbed, and some may pass through to the outside.

When low frequencies are attenuated in a room, the cause is always canceling reflections. All that is needed to allow low frequency waves to sound properly and with a uniform frequency response is to remove or at least reduce the reflections. A popular argument is that low frequencies need the presence of a room mode that's low enough to "support" a given frequency. However, modes are not necessary for a wave to exist. As proof, any low frequency can be produced outdoors - and of course there are no room modes outdoors! Top

Here's a good way to look at the issue: Imagine you set up a high quality loudspeaker outdoors, play some low frequency tones, and then measure the frequency response five feet in front of the speaker. In this case the measured frequency response outdoors will be exactly as flat as the loudspeaker. Now wall in a small area, say 10x10x10 feet, using very thin paper, and measure the response again. The low frequencies are still present in this "room" because the thin paper is transparent at low frequencies and they pass right through. Now, make the walls progressively heavier using thick paper, then thin wood, then thicker wood, then sheet rock, and finally brick or cement. With each increase in wall density, reflections will cause cancellations within the room at ever-lower frequencies as the walls become massive enough to reflect the waves.

Therefore, it is reflections that cause acoustic interference and standing waves, and those are what reduce the level of low frequencies that are produced in a room. When the reflections are reduced by applying bass traps, the frequency response within the room improves. And if all reflections were able to be removed, the response would be exactly as flat as if the walls did not exist at all.

PLMONROE

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Bass Control in the Listening Room
« Reply #1 on: 30 Sep 2003, 04:07 pm »
I too find the difference  in opinion of two obviously competent people interesting. Perhaps when eating an elephant one can start from either the left side or the right side?

Paul

John Casler

Bass Control in the Listening Room
« Reply #2 on: 30 Sep 2003, 04:28 pm »
Quote from: PLMONROE
I too find the difference  in opinion of two obviously competent people interesting. Perhaps when eating an elephant one can start from either the left side or the right side?

Paul


When I eat Elephant, I start in the middle (sweet spot) :mrgreen: cause that is where I want the bass to be.  8)

Housteau

Bass Control in the Listening Room
« Reply #3 on: 30 Sep 2003, 05:10 pm »
"Perhaps when eating an elephant one can start from either the left side or the right side?"


That is an interesting way to look at it :).  I guess that since neither approach can realistically achieve their goal to 100%, one could choose either and meet somewhere in the middle with similar results.

The part that is a bit difficult for me to swallow, is when he states that you could never have too much low frequency absorption.  For him the limiting factor would be when it would start to harm the mid and higher frequencies.  He uses what I consider to be standard modes of control for those upper frequencies and does not wish to 'kill' the rooms ambience.  However, by attemping to eliminate the lower frequency reflections, his theory has the bass becoming stronger, more pronounced and more uniform to be in better balance with the higher spectrum.

I guess there is another way to look at this.  One theory makes use of the bass reinforced by room boundries to make up for the dips, or what is cancelled out by the other reflections.  The addition of bass controls are then used to try and eliminate those other cancellations to bring the overall effect to a flatter response throughout the bass, but possibly elevated over the mids and uppers.

The other method tries to eliminate that reinforced bass with the added benefit of eliminating the cancellations at the same time, with the result  being a flatter response uniformly throughout the musical spectrum.

Tyson

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Bass Control in the Listening Room
« Reply #4 on: 30 Sep 2003, 07:21 pm »
Or you could just get a killer set of headphones and never have to worry about the room again.

Housteau

Bass Control in the Listening Room
« Reply #5 on: 30 Sep 2003, 07:30 pm »
Quote from: Tyson
Or you could just get a killer set of headphones and never have to worry about the room again.


Doesn't that come close to blasphemy on a VPMP forum :)?

PLMONROE

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Bass Control in the Listening Room
« Reply #6 on: 30 Sep 2003, 09:50 pm »
No, no,no! Tyson has a good idea and I have just the thing for a real killer set of headhones. How about straping one RM/X on the left ear and another on the right???

Paul

Tyson

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Bass Control in the Listening Room
« Reply #7 on: 30 Sep 2003, 10:12 pm »
Hehe, I love my RM40's, but realistically, a pair of HD600's and an OTL tube amp gets me 90% of the sound of the 40's for about 1/20th of the price.

SWG255

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Re: Bass Control in the Listening Room
« Reply #8 on: 1 Oct 2003, 02:22 am »
Hi,

Perhaps i'm behind the times, but I remember when conventional wisdom held that when measuring (and listening) to loudspeakers outdoors, one did get a flatter response, but also a roll-off at lower frequencies because there was no boundary reinforcement of lower frequencies. I'm thinking here of all those old High Fidelity Magazine speaker frequency plots showing relatively flat response down to the 50 Hz. to 100 Hz area, with fairly steep roll-offs below that. Of course many modern loudspeakers go lower than typical designs prevelent when that magazine was in its hayday, but I still suspect that if all the bass frequencies are absorbed to some degree, one might find the system sounding bass-shy. I believe the best we can do is to eliminate (as much as possible) the major reinforcement nodes in the room. I think it is not practical to try to bring the response up at the cancellation nodes. I suppose room treatment tends to even out the peaks and valleys, but again, I'll bet some boundary reinforcement is a good thing.

 

Quote from: Housteau
I ran across this web site recently and have found it very interesting and confusing:

http://www.recording.org/users/acoustics/

The author explains small room acoustics in a way that makes sense, yet is opposed to a lot of the common theories of controlling bass, and/or setting up a listening room that I have been used to.  In the past J. Gordon Holt placed together several articles on setting up a proper listening space.  These are the ones that I have followed.  Here is a man with years u ...