[John Casler]

Having a lot of fun reading about and trying various power "treatment" devices.

It seems that there are three basic types or treatments:

1) Power Balancing
2) Power Stabilization
3) Power Cleaning/Filtering

Examples of each would look like this:

1) Power Balancing - Transformer based systems like BPT
2) Power Stabilization - Systems like ExactPower and PS Audio's P1000
3) Power Cleaning/Filtering - Systems like Monster 3500, BPT's CPC, and others.

Now of course many have combined systems of the three.

It is my understanding that:

Power Balancing - nullifies power problems by creating an opposite mirror of the input to negate and balance any negatives

Power Stabilization - Makes sure there is an "even" and "adequate" flow of power, without dips or peaks

Power Cleaning/Filtration - Reduces and or treats detrimental power products like distortion, RFI or EMI.

In simple terms does that about cover it??

[satfrat]

I think you could include isolation transformer to this list, an area that PsychicAnimal believes in. It`s my understanding that isolation transformers along with a balanced power conditioner make for aan awesome combination,, say a 30 amp isolation transformer that has a 20 amp balanced power conditioner plugged into it makes for an excellent reference system for some home systems. And of course Bybee`s added to this equation can also be benefitial as with the BPT BP3.5 that has Bybee`s included. Rumor has it that a new BP3.5 will debut shortly. Any news on this John? Regards, Robin

[DVV]

Having a lot of fun reading about and trying various power "treatment" devices.

It seems that there are three basic types or treatments:

1) Power Balancing
2) Power Stabilization
3) Power Cleaning/Filtering

Examples of each would look like this:

1) Power Balancing - Transformer based systems like BPT
2) Power Stabilization - Systems like ExactPower and PS Audio's P1000
3) Power Cleaning/Filtering - Systems like Monster 3500, BPT's CPC, and others.

Now of course many have combined systems ...

That's more or less about it.

One small note, though. You said some have more than one feature, so I just want to clarify - some indeed claim more than one feature by virtue of their very concept. PS Audio is a good case in point - they call it a regenerator, and while this may seem boisterous, it is in fact technically quite correct.

What Paul McGowan does is to rectify incoming AC and filter it by turning it into DC, which is then converted back into AC by digitally simulating a 50/60 Hz sine wave. So, technically, they filter, they stabilize and they enhance, as you can adjust for a desired frequency. While this sounds simple and easy, it is in fact very hard to do properly, and it comes hard for me as an affictionado of PS Audio to say that unfortunately, despite the technical bravado, they just don't sound right - very flat, no dynamics to speak of.

In my view, a decent line filter is the best solution all around, only insofar that it requires the least number of compromises to be made. However, as a general rule, beware of cheap devices. Anything that is supposed to work with kilowatts of power simply cannot be cheap if it's of good quality or better, such components cost money.

Having said that, I wish I could now say go for expensive, but I can't do that, because I've heard far too many very expensive products which fail to do as promised to various degrees, proving that price is no longer ANY sort of guarantee, or even a strong probability. Appearently, the field is too lucrative.

Which brings me back to my favorite motto - trust no-one but your own ears. But make your own ears work, audition.

Cheers,
DVV

[Marbles]

Dejan, I agree with you with the PS Audio stuff on amps, but I must disagree on source equipment.

In my system I have no trouble with dynamics at all.  My amps are plugged into the wall, my sources are into the PP600.

As always YMMV

[Monolith]

A balanced power transformer is an isolation transformer that balances power.

[Psychicanimal]

Regenerators are complicated devices.  I am going to sell my Elgar medical grade regenerator cheap and having the rectification circuitry in my Forté amp modded so that it will work satisfactorily just plugged to the 220V ONEAC.  I got a second 220V Xentech isolation transformer and it will fee exclusively two T4 filters.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?accspowr&1069826173

There is another type of device that affects the electricity:  the Quantum.

My amps are plugged into the wall, my sources are into the PP600.
 

Power amps need clean power, too.  This "plugging straight into the wall" thing is a misconception brought about by the use of inadequate filters and subsequent loss of performance.

[DVV]

Dejan, I agree with you with the PS Audio stuff on amps, but I must disagree on source equipment.

In my system I have no trouble with dynamics at all.  My amps are plugged into the wall, my sources are into the PP600.

As always YMMV

A misunderstanding, Rob, I put it awkwardly. I was referring to loss of dynamics with quite a few power treatement devices in circuit.

This is an unfortunate, but well known problem with filters in general; they tend to reduce dynamics. Of course, nowhere is it carved in stone that they MUST do so, but hard practice has shown that it is not at all easy to produce a filter which avoids this obvious pitfall.

The dynamics of the source components are externally limited only by the junk in the mains - other than that, it's all up to them and their designers, to be sure.

Cheers,
DVV

[Guan]

I was referring to loss of dynamics with quite a few power treatement devices in circuit.

Hi Dejan,

I recently noted such a loss of dynamics and detail when I plugged my Jeff Rowland 8T amp into the AR Senior w/ground. The amp sounds better plugged directly into the wall.

I was surprised as the DeZorel has worked well with my Mesa Baron tube amp and the Norh Le Amps. Does a massive power supply and plenty of capacitance (640,000uF) render the amp relatively immune to line noise? Or is the AR Senior somehow limiting current (unlikely) or just providing overkill filtering?

Regards,

Guan

[DVV]

I was referring to loss of dynamics with quite a few power treatement devices in circuit.

Hi Dejan,

I recently noted such a loss of dynamics and detail when I plugged my Jeff Rowland 8T amp into the AR Senior w/ground. The amp sounds better plugged directly into the wall.

I was surprised as the DeZorel has worked well with my Mesa Baron tube amp and the Norh Le Amps. Does a massive power supply and plenty of capacitance (640,000uF) render the amp relatively immune to line noise? Or  ...

To the best of my knowledge, DeZorel filters are limited only by their thermal switches (fuses), so their limiting of dynamics by themselves is highly unlikely. I have experienced improved dynamics with them too many times to be able to believe that.

It's possible that the Rowland has a lower impedance power supply, so adding a filter changes the input transfer function; this can and does happen here and there (e.g. also with Jadis electronics).

Obviously, an elaborate power supply with that much capacitance will be more immune to line dirt than a typical commercially made one, that's for sure.

Cheers,
DVV

[PhilNYC]

Power amps need clean power, too.  ...

I agree with this, but I also think that different power solutions will have different effects on an amp that may not justify the tradeoffs (depending on tastes and preferences).  My understanding is that if you put a transformer into the AC path, you will lose some speed, so solutions like balanced power will result in loss in dynamics.  Filters don't have this problem, so the issues are different.

My own personal preference is to use balanced power on source and preamp, and a filter on the amp...

Phil

[John Casler]

My own personal preference is to use balanced power on source and preamp, and a filter on the amp...

Thats's what I did with my first "real conditioner" (review in progress).

It is a customized BP-1 with 1/2 being run through the transformer, for front end and digital components, and the other being a 20 amp CPC for the power amp(s).

The power amp section also has the High Current Noise Filter, and the whole unit is silver wired and has Bybees feeding everything.

So far it has well exceeded expectations (especially with video)

[satfrat]

I agree with this, but I also think that different power solutions will have different effects on an amp that may not justify the tradeoffs (depending on tastes and preferences).  My understanding is that if you put a transformer into the AC path, you will lose some speed, so solutions like balanced power will result in loss in dynamics.  

Phil

                                                            Phil, it is my belief that your understanding is flawed, at least from what I`ve read and more importantly from what I`m experiencing with my 2 Butler Audio 3150`s plugged into my BP2.5 w/4 Bybee`s fully modified also. I also have everything else plugged into this balanced power conditioner and I can assure you that I have no lack of dynamics. In fact, it`s just the other way around. I went without my conditioner for 2 months to have the modifications done and this was truely an eye (ear) opener. It was readily apparent how flat the sound had become without the conditioner and I pretty much stopped listening to music all together. I did have concerns about maxxing out the headroom of the transformer with these amps so I talked to Chris Hoff about it. He told me that so long as I didn`t pop my 20 amp circuitbreaker on my dedicated circuit, then the conditioner could handle whatever was thrown at it without any dynamics loss whatsoever from the amps. His words Phil and from what I`m hearing, I have to agree with him. Regards, Robin

[PhilNYC]

Phil, it is my belief that your understanding is flawed, at least from what I`ve read and more importantly from what I`m experiencing with my 2 Butler Audio 3150`s plugged into my BP2.5 w/4 Bybee`s fully modified also. I also have everything else plugged into this balanced power conditioner and I can assure you that I have no lack of dynamics. In fact, it`s just the other way around..

My personal experience has been that putting a balanced power conditioner on my amp has reduced speed and dynamics.  When I first got interested in using power conditioning products a few months ago, I bought two balanced power conditioners (Blue Circle MR800 and MR1200).  I put my cdp and preamp on the MR800 and my amp on the MR1200...the MR1200 handles a max of 1200W, and my amp has a max draw of 600W, so there was no issue with maxing out the headroom on the MR1200.  Initially, I was shocked...the entire sonic presentation of my system changed, and not all for the better.  While I was getting some very nice improvements in the imaging and felt the low frequencies had cleaned up some, there was something seriously wrong, like the life had been sucked out of the music.  I then tried removing the MR1200 from the system...plugged the amp directly into the wall...and immediately I found that the life had come back to the sound, although I lost some of the imaging.  I then tried removing the MR800, and what I found there was that the imaging was even less sharp, and I was getting a bit of bass smearing.

Anyways, I tried a couple of other configurations...cdp into MR800, preamp and amp into MR1200, cdp into MR800, preamp into MR1200, amp into wall, everything into MR1200, only the cdp into MR800, etc.  And without exception, every time the amp was plugged into the conditioner, the life went out of the music.  I was finally left with my cdp and preamp plugged into the MR800, my amp plugged into the wall, and my MR1200 out of the picture...

Curious about why it was happening this way, I spoke with a few amp manufacturers, including Blue Circle, about why this might be happening.  I got a couple of different answers, but the one that made the most sense to me was the one about putting a transformer in the AC path causing some speed loss.  

Anyways, since this experimentation, I have used my MR1200 as a demo/loaner to my customers.  I've loaned it out to a handful (5) customers, and all but one have come away with the same experience.  The one customer who didn't have that same experience runs his cdp (w/volume control) direct into his amp...not sure what relevance this has, but I thought it was interesting that the one exception also had a different system configuration.

Sometimes I wonder if everyone in this audiophile community uses terminology with the same meaning... Maybe we are using "dynamics" differently?  I can see how removing your power conditioner could cause you to lose some sharpness in your imaging...and that could be perceived as a loss in dynamics.  Or maybe I'm talking about transients more than dynamics?  I'd also be curious to know what kind of music you usually listen to...

I dunno...in the end, you have to trust your ears.  My ears tell me that I much prefer to not plug my amp into a balanced power conditioner...

[DVV]

My personal experience has been that putting a balanced power conditioner on my amp has reduced speed and dynamics.  When I first got interested in using power conditioning products a few months ago, I bought two balanced power conditioners (Blue Circle MR800 and MR1200).  I put my cdp and preamp on the MR800 and my amp on the MR1200...the MR1200 handles a max of 1200W, and my amp has a max draw of 600W, so there was no issue with maxing out the headroom on the MR1200.  Initially, I was shocked...the entire ...

Phil, you want to try the DeZorel. You WILL be surprised, guaranteed, and for the better.

There's a unit circulating here, ask Audiojerry about it. Or talk to one source which has them (I don't know in what capacity), http://www.fsaudioweb.com , posted for sales and tryouts.

I own several, and bought them all after having tried a good part of the competition (PS Audio, Tice, etc). They win hands down.

Cheers,
DVV

[PhilNYC]

Hi DVV,

Thanks for the suggestion...I would certainly like to try it, although at this point, I'm very happy with the MR800's performance on my source and preamp.  It looks like the DeZorel is more than I need for the 70W drawn by source/preamp, but I'd definitely like to experiment more with power conditioning as it is used on a power amp.  As noted in my previous message, that's where I've found more weakness than improvement from balanced power conditioning.

Phil

[Marbles]

Power amps need clean power, too. This "plugging straight into the wall" thing is a misconception brought about by the use of inadequate filters and subsequent loss of performance.
.  ...

The amps are on a seperate circuit on silver cryo'd Acme outlets.  Each (amp) channel is about 250 lbs which is mostly the power supply.  There is no white noise at my speakers, none.  You can press your ears against the drivers and not hear anything, so I won't be spending any more money on trying to quiet amps that don't need quieting.

At some point maybe I will try another way to clean my sources other than the PP600, like a BPT or Bolder product, to see what differences there are, but my amps don't need anything AFAIC.

[satfrat]

Hi Phil, my setup is listed in systems but anyways, my musical preference is sooft jazz, soft rock, classical, and new age,,, pretty much in that order. I agree with you wholeheartedly that in the end, it`s up to your ears as to what`s acceptable. And I`ll also admit that my audio terminology isn`t up to snuff but all I can do is relate my experiences as I hear them and hope someone out there (here) concurs. I have gone back’forth with both my Yamaha HTR-5490 6.1 digital receiver and m present 2 Butler Audio 3150`s, each with 3 150 wpc (hense the 3150:)). Now with the Yamaha, it was a no brainer. With the 3150`s, it`s not quite that one sided. But I still prefer the balanced pwer powering my amp. By dynamics, I speak of more body, realism, livelyness that the BPT w/Bybee`s bring to the table. This is especially true in the horns of soft jazz and somewhat so in vocals of soft rock. Balanced power or Bybee`s present a realism to the  music that elevates it to an emotional experience as compared to just listen crystal clear music outta the wall. If this sounds like (whoring the BPT), so be it. But your statements didn`t ring true to my ears Phil as John Casler`s had, all tho he chooses not to run his amps thru the transformer as I have.(mine has a few extra goodies like ERS, DynamiCaps, extra set of Bybee`s) I have read that every transformer has it`s own signature and imparts this on the music. And BPT`s Plitron LoNo transfomer is said to have a very musical signature with the large Bybee`s bringing out te 3D dynamics & realistic naturalness to the soundstage. I hope this explanation somewhat clears up where I`m coming from. Maybe John Casler will give some further insights once he gets a few more miles on his setup. Regards, Robin

[DVV]

Hi DVV,

Thanks for the suggestion...I would certainly like to try it, although at this point, I'm very happy with the MR800's performance on my source and preamp.  It looks like the DeZorel is more than I need for the 70W drawn by source/preamp, but I'd definitely like to experiment more with power conditioning as it is used on a power amp.  As noted in my previous message, that's where I've found more weakness than improvement from balanced power conditioning.

Phil

You know, if I've learnt anything over my 34 year long affair with audio, which even my wife has stopped being jealous about, that's that there's always something better out there. By "better", I don't mean newer, snazzier, bigger, badder, I mean something that will make an appreciable difference that not only I, but also my wife and son (and each has her/his own system in her/his room) will agree is an improvement.

And the only way of knowing is to try it in your home or office, wherever your own system is. Thank God for my professional involvement in the media, which has enabled me to try almost anything I wanted to try, and then buy only used (by me) equipment. The magazines pay poorly, but thsi is definitely an asset.

This is why I suggested fsaudioweb.com. I was there and saw they were offering home trials - that spells serious to me, not to mention the fun of discovery. And since I live in a "transition economy" environment, believe me, it takes a hell of a lot to convince me to spend a lot of money on anything I absolutely don't need.

And I also rely on people whom I know are serious and with a hearing and criteria comparable to mine - Psychicanimal here is such a person. I started him out on line filtering as an idea, but he picked it up and worked at it, and today stands very firmly on his own two legs.

Cheers,
DVV