PMC IB2: too much bass?

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HifyFreaky

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PMC IB2: too much bass?
« on: 13 Jan 2008, 07:49 pm »
Hi,

I have a pair of PMC IB2 speakers, and I found their bass is sometimes excessive and difficult to tame.
Now the amplification is Electrocompaniet Aw180 (mono power amps rated at 180 Watts-8 ohm) and I'm moving to Bryston 7BSST hoping that more power will help in controlling this bass, that is sometimes and with certain recordings, too boomy.
My room is 14 feet wide x 30 feet deep x 6.56 feet high with acoustic treatment in the ceiling, some bookshelves in the side walls, a thick curtain in the rear wall
Any advices regarding cables, stands (I have the original PMC stands), acoustic treatment, distances to walls, etc... for controlling the bass of these otherwise marvelous speakers?

Thanks.
Pedro.

ec

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #1 on: 13 Jan 2008, 10:01 pm »
I would run a sweep from 20 Hz to say about 200 Hz and measure it.  I will guarantee you it won't be ruler flat.  The question is at what freq's are the valleys and peaks.  There are freq's you can d/l from the web to make your own sweep CD.  All you need is an SPL meter (with correction table) or you can use some shareware software out there along with your notebook and a decent mic.  Lastly see if you can borrow something like a Velodyne SMS-1, it will measure this (includes a mic) and will graph this for you via a display attached to it.  Find out where you are now and then you can look at things such as bass traps in the corner then maybe some EQ.

HifyFreaky

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #2 on: 13 Jan 2008, 10:24 pm »
Actually, I had a TacT system so I have a curve of my room response. I've been testing bass traps and they do have an effect, but they are not enough. Maybe I should fill the room with bass traps, I don't know.
Do you think putting a more powerful amp like the Bryston 7BSSt would help controlling the bass or it will only make worse the problem?

ec

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #3 on: 13 Jan 2008, 10:30 pm »
There are various effectiveness of bass traps.  Basically the thicker they are, usually the more effective they are (trapping lower freqs).  You can always see if you can borrow a Bryston Amplifier.  Even a 4B SST should be more than enough and are pretty common.  If I recall your speakers are 4 ohms and the 4B SST puts out 500 wpc into 4 ohms which should be plenty  :icon_lol:

Sasha

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #4 on: 14 Jan 2008, 12:38 am »
Bryston 7BSST will not make anything worse, including the bass output/control, this was my experience. I do not know if it will help with your problem, but I am sure it will make everything sound much much better. And the fact that IB2s are 4ohms should tell you that you will benefit from more powerful amp, not the opposite.
The back of my IB2s is 5 feet away from the back wall, and about the same from the side walls.
My stands are 17”.
Contact Nenad, I think he just purchased TacT, trying to solve the same problem, you can share experiences.
I have no such problems.

HifyFreaky

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #5 on: 14 Jan 2008, 07:49 am »
The fact is that I sold the TacT because it is against the audiophile ethos of simplifying things. It does not make sense to have an expensive digital front end (Linn Unidisk 1.1)  to convert to digital again in order to apply filters and room correction. I even had the corner woofers and found it quite complicate to set up correctly.

Is it more important to keep the speakers away from side or rear walls?
I don't have any problem to put them away from the rear wall, but if I do it from the side walls probably it will affect the stereo imaging.

Do you remember if the bass was more boomy when feeding them with less powerful amplifiers?
Do you think biamping will better bass control?

I have bought 4 cylindrical bass traps and the effectiveness varies a lot with the position. I think I'll have to buy a lot more. Maybe the fact that the ceiling is quite low makes worse the problem.

Thanks.

Sasha

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #6 on: 14 Jan 2008, 09:22 pm »
I would say both rear and side wall distances are important, hard to say what room interaction will be, you really need to experiment.
For what it is worth, Nenad’s IB2s are away from side walls as far as mine, but his are much closer to the rear wall, and he does have some problems, so based on that you may see benefits if you go further from the rear wall.
This distance also impacts perceived soundstage depth, IB2s are incredible in relatively free space.
Bass was somewhat more boomy when I was driving IB2s with less powerful amps, including 4B SST, but it was not huge difference, there are many other aspects of 7B SST performance that I readily noticed as better, for example, the size of soundstage and imaging considerably improved, and there is a sense of effortlessness and openness to the sound. All these ranked much higher on the list of improvements when compared to bass performance. If I looked at bass improvements alone, I would question validity of going with 7B SST, but considering everything else, no way I would go back to 4B SST.
In regard to ceiling, I agree, it is very low, my ceiling is 9”, maybe more heavy ceiling acoustic treatment is needed in your case.
Nenad has been filling up his room with acoustic panels and tube traps, now he ordered TacT to see if it will make things better, instead of sinking money into more tube traps.

HifyFreaky

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #7 on: 14 Jan 2008, 10:34 pm »
I'll contact Nenad. I have quite a few experiences with the TacT System. I liked it, but I'm not going back with it.
I'll try moving the speakers around and maybe experimenting with different cables for the bass section (I'm now bicabling).

James Tanner

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #8 on: 14 Jan 2008, 11:14 pm »
I'll contact Nenad. I have quite a few experiences with the TacT System. I liked it, but I'm not going back with it.
I'll try moving the speakers around and maybe experimenting with different cables for the bass section (I'm now bicabling).

Hi,

Make sure the wall distance from the center of the woofer is different from the back wall vs the side wall vs the ceiling.

Be careful with room traps - they have a tendency to remove the transients from the sound.

james

Mag

Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #9 on: 15 Jan 2008, 01:05 am »
Just my .02 cents.
My room is similar to yours 11' x 25' x 7'. Well it's a long story so I'll try to make it brief.
Excessive bass is not necessarily a result of too big a speaker in a confined space. I worried about this when I first bought my Paradigm monitor 9's, moving them into this room. That it would overload the room, it didn't. However I have a cheap sub which did overload the room with excessive bass. I though it was an okay sub when I had it in my living room. On a hunch I bought a better sub with bass like a sonic boom in comparison. Well that did the trick. So first lesson, sloppy un-articulate bass with sound boomy.
 When I bought my Paradigms Studio 100 v2 I bi-amped them with my available receivers at the time. The bass sounded like ass, and boomy, and I wondered why these speakers had such positive reviews. That's when I purchased a used 3b-st. Hooked it up and powered up and that very instant my jaw hit the floor. What a difference! It was slam bass that didn't overload the room. And the highs were sweet. My test track from 'Frontiers' by David Arkenstone opening track, would always distort the tweeter on the french horn with receivers. Lesson two, its not the rated wattage of an amp that will determine whether it will drive a power hungry speaker.
I use acoustic foam panel diffusers along the entire bottom half of my room.  It focuses the sound better, but it's only a marginal change. They won't make a bad room better.
To sum up, it's possible your speakers are sloppy, resulting in bad bass. But I think that most likely they are under powered and the Bryston should solve this problem. Maybe borrow one from a friend, if you can, first to be sure.

HifyFreaky

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #10 on: 15 Jan 2008, 01:30 am »
Hi, thanks.
Sorry, but what does "sloppy" exactly mean?

Unfortunately I don't have any friend with more powerful amps than me... :(
Anyway, I'm decided to go with Bryston 7BSST. I am now recollecting funds selling some stuff.

I'll check also James' advice of not having 3 equal axis woofer/walls.

Also probably try some other cables in the bass section. Should they be thicker or thinner if I want more control of the bass?

Sasha

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #11 on: 15 Jan 2008, 02:00 am »
I would not try to tame bass with speaker cables. What you may end up doing is having some speaker cable that rolls off LF, what may give you an impression of better control but that is not what you want to do.
I use Acoustic Zen Satori. What speaker cables are you using now?
You most likely have a problem with room or underpowered amplifier, so focus on that.
Start moving speakers around applying common sense, James gave you good advice.
And it seems you already set your mind on 7B SST, so wait with additional room treatment till amps arrive.
There is nothing "sloppy" with IB2s.

Mag

Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #12 on: 15 Jan 2008, 04:07 am »
I used the word sloppy because I didn't want to use the word cheap. :oops:
I looked up your speakers on the net and they look like killer speakers, nothing cheap about those.
I guess defined would have been a better world. Your speakers are most likely under powered resulting in undefined bass.
In my room I have like 4 tower speakers, and I was just playing Allan Parsons- A Valid Path, tracks 1,4 and 7. If your familiar with these tunes you can't get any bassier than these, yet it's still defined and articulate. However I do have my speakers set to small on my av/receiver. I find with the av/receiver set to large, which is a lot of low bass with studio 100's and having 10 speakers. That over a two week period I succumb to listening fatigue. Set to small the mid-range seems better as well. So you may want to control the bass somewhat, but I don't think that from what your saying that you're getting too much bass.

HifyFreaky

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #13 on: 15 Jan 2008, 02:25 pm »
Definitely IB2 are not sloppy!! You should check them some times, but I warn you, you can fall in love forever with them  aa
They have a rather industrial looks, but the sound is amazing.
Which tracks are that? I have the greatest hits, so maybe I already have them.
I am having problems using the speakers with the power amps and a passive preamp. Using an A/V processor you can set the boxes as small and not have any problem, but also that's not audiophile!.

I am using NBS The Statement really short (less than 2 feet) cables for mid-high and about the same lenght of JPS superconductor cable (the thin blue ones) for bass. Probably the JPS have less quality than the others.

Mag

Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #14 on: 16 Jan 2008, 12:27 am »
No, I don't want to listen to speakers I can't afford because then I'll want them. Since getting the BCD-1, I am completely satisfied with my sound. Besides going to better speakers is outside of my budget and I spent enough money.
When I listened to the tracks last night I had all my speakers set to large and the bass directed to the mains and sub.
Normally I just have the low freq. coming from the sub with crossover at 88. I also have some speakers set to large and some small, this gives me optimal sound. And  how its sounds is what matters, that's audiophile.

Sorry, I spelt the name wrong.
 
Alan Parsons- A Valid Path
1. Return to Tunguska
2. We Play the Game
3. A Recurring Dream Within a Dream

David Arkenstone- Frontier
1. Main Theme

HifyFreaky

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #15 on: 18 Jan 2008, 10:11 pm »
I don't have any of these tracks! :(

I always use to check the bass "Sad old red" by Simply Red. It has an amazing bass line and an overall fine sound, for a pop recording.
For checking mid freqs and voices, I use "Reach for tomorrow" by Ella Fitzgerald. An extraordinary recording. Hardly to believe it was made in the early sixties.
For checking stereo image and soundstage "Cafe Blue" by Patricia Barber is another amazing recording, specially her version of "Nardis".
These and other recordings are always in my tool box when going to an audition  :P

Mag

Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #16 on: 18 Jan 2008, 10:37 pm »
A Valid Path is a departure from Alan Parsons, into electronic music. As a whole the  album is not bad, but these 3, IMO are standout tracks. Probably why it wasn't included in a Best of.
For dynamics I use Kitaro- Cirque Ingenieaux, I love this album! The reviews aren't so hot though, works for me.
Anyways what we really want to know is did the 7B-sst solve your bass problem? Or was it a misunderstanding on my part that you just wanted more control of your bass?

HifyFreaky

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #17 on: 18 Jan 2008, 10:42 pm »
I still don't have them. I have been selling stuff to raise some money and I hope to get them soon.
I'll come back to this post once I've tried them.

John Thomas

Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #18 on: 27 Jan 2008, 10:13 pm »
Hi,

I have a pair of PMC IB2 speakers, and I found their bass is sometimes excessive and difficult to tame.
Now the amplification is Electrocompaniet Aw180 (mono power amps rated at 180 Watts-8 ohm) and I'm moving to Bryston 7BSST hoping that more power will help in controlling this bass, that is sometimes and with certain recordings, too boomy.
My room is 14 feet wide x 30 feet deep x 6.56 feet high with acoustic treatment in the ceiling, some bookshelves in the side walls, a thick curtain in the rear wall
Any advices regarding cables, stands (I have the original PMC stands), acoustic treatment, distances to walls, etc... for controlling the bass of these otherwise marvelous speakers?


Thanks.
Pedro.


I have the IB2's including the center speaker in cherry  for about 8 months and they are gorgeous. I have never had a bass problem with them at all. I tried PMC's expensive stands and return them. Expensive and flimsy. I ended up special ordering Sound Anchors 4 post stand with the help of Bob at Starsound Technology. The stands were made 14 inches high without any audiopoints. The posts are filled with Starsounds Micro bearing steel, 2 inch audiopoints on the bottom. On the top of the stand are screwed in starsound coupling discs, inserted into them miniature audiopoints (.2AP7D). Total stand height 16 1/4 inches. The speakers sit on top of these talk about the bass tighten up is a understatement. Total for the stands $1100. Maybe a better stand will help you out. I'm even thinking  of selling my IB2's to upgrade to the PMC MB2 for more bass. Good luck.

HifyFreaky

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Re: PMC IB2: too much bass?
« Reply #19 on: 28 Jan 2008, 10:09 am »
Yes I thought about those stands, but I think it would be very expensive, only the transport to Spain, because they are very heavy for their bulk.

Anybody knows,  if I fill with sand or lead balls my PMC regular stands would that improve the results?