[bhobba]

I understand you about not trying them with your Minis, they only gives 9 W class A

Try them with SETs if you like.  At 87db, or 90db for the two at 1 meter, and allowing 10 db headroom to a max of 1w (ie .1w average), you will get 74db at 4m, which is only sounds about half as loud as an average of 85db.  Extended listening above 85db is not recommended as it can cause ear damage.  I would generally recommend an amp capeable of delivering 85 db at your listening position with at least 10 db headroom - preferably 15db.  This gives about a 50w amp with the mini's.  But that first watt of a set is supposed to be so magical that if you listen at low volume levels it may be fine.

Thanks
Bill

[lonewolfny42]

Lets try an experiment concerning the Mini TP's....

groovybassist/Mike

bbchem/Bill

opnly bafld / Lin

If you happen to have any other amps on hand (besides what your using now)...or maybe you can borrow another from a friend...could you try them with your Mini TP's and see how they do powering the speakers...and give us your comments on how it worked out. Thanks....

                    Chris

[bhobba]

Bill....

That is not to say something like a panny will be unlistenable - it is just that better amps will be - well better.

Right....and the better the amp....and the more power you have....the better it will sound.

In biamp mode the panny gives 200w to the woofer (I am not sure if they are bridged - in which case it would be 400W) and 100W to the tweeter.  Are you seriously suggesting that is not enough power?  I know SP speakers can be wound up to phenomenal levels with no distrees - and the tendency is to use it - but if an amp is better than a panny I would suggest it is better not because of available power.  After all 100W sounds only half as loud as a 1k monster.

But the issue of power required for SP speakers has been rehashed many times - and on this I differ with you and a number of people.  It would be a boring world if everyone always agreed   .

Let the final words be Bob's:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=47846.10
'The Minis are an easier load than their big brothers - the Timepiece 3.0s.  They are 87dB @ 1W1/M as opposed to 85dB for the 3.0s.  Reason being is that SEAS used basically the same motor structure for the Mini woofer as used in the 8-inch TP3 driver.  Since the cone is smaller it has less mass and is therefore easier for the amp to push.  This also raises the smaller woofer's free-air resonance, but that's OK as I don't think we'd want to push a 6.5-inch cone all the way down to -3dB @ 30 Hz. 2dB doesn't sound like a lot, but it reduces amplifier requirements to near half of what the 3.0s needs.  So... the Minis are pretty easy to drive.  I'll tell you what, my NuForce Ref 9s will blast you on your ass if you wanna play it that loud.  I know I do'  

The ref 9s are rated at 160W into 8 ohms.  I suepct 200W a panny is - how do Roles dealers say it - adequate madam.

As always Chris - all the best  

Thanks
Bill

[lonewolfny42]

Bill....
You may differ with me-all well and good ....but you have >not heard< the SP Tech's....its only what you have read.
 I don't think the Panny will be a good match...I think you have mentioned an AKSA....that will work.
Right now playing here in my audio room....AKSA Lifeforce with my TP's...sounds fine.

I have not heard the Mini's....I await their arrival...their on order. And....from my stock of equipment...I'll try amps from 8 watts to 800 watts....to see what will really work well with them.

                          Chris

[pbrstreetgang]

The Panny is a good piece and I suggest it to get my non audiophile friends into some good sounds. I keep one around and have set my father up with one. On very accurate speakers they are cold, super detailed, and kinda lifeless. They do lots of things right but there is an organic element missing. There is some solice with a tube dac but using it as it should with the digital in the options are limited. I wouldnt think using a $150 Panny with now 5.5K MTPs that are super accurate would be a good match but I havent tried- Please report to us your findings

[lonewolfny42]

On very accurate speakers they are cold, super detailed, and kinda lifeless. They do lots of things right but there is an organic element missing.

..... ....RIGHT !!

[bhobba]

If you happen to have any other amps on hand (besides what your using now)...or maybe you can borrow another from a friend...could you try them with your Mini TP's and see how they do powering the speakers...and give us your comments on how it worked out.

Of course Chris.  When I get my Mini's I will be posting a very detailed review - including how loud they will go with what I hope to power them with - my panny.  As finaces permit, and I  upgrade my amp (to ultimately what I want - a Soraya), I will definitely be commenting on power required - amongst other things.  My initial feeling is that the Soraya will be an upgrade from the panny in term of transparency and realism - not in terms of power or clarity - after all it is 100W as well.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

You may differ with me-all well and good ....but you have >not heard< the SP Tech's....its only what you have read.
 I don't think the Panny will be a good match...I think you have mentioned an AKSA....that will work.
Right now playing here in my audio room....AKSA Lifeforce with my TP's...sounds fine.

Yep.

Thanks
Bill

[lonewolfny42]

Bill....

I go back on AC a long way....since the beginning. There was a lot of hype on the Panny's and JVC units...best thing since sliced bread. Well....after trying them...they were not. They just do not sound that great...I feel most of the digital amps that I have heard lack the warmth of tubes and the power and control of solid state boat anchor amps. Of the one's I've heard....Channel Islands has been the best sounding of that group.

I still have my JVC -ES1....packed in a box....tried to sell it....and the seller returned it. Can't blame him....

These speakers need a good amp....ask anyone who has owned them for awhile...and who has tried different combo's....trust me....I know what I'm talking about....

[jimdgoulding]

I haven't even been in the same room with SP Timepieces but I do have a lot of in house experience with 2way dynamic speakers.  A case in point was the Dynaudio predecessor to their Confidence One.  It's a 4ohm speaker with average efficiency for the breed.  I drove them with 150w monoblocks with less than a meter of cable.  One interesting feature is that this model has a massive voice coil.  The translation of that is that when a big bass transient comes along- with sufficient power- that speaker is up to the occasion as I expect the Timepieces might also be.  By occasion I mean you'll think the walls of your room have just bowed!!  I know I did.  Completely filled my room and changed my expectation of what is possible.  So, if the Timepieces will turn a lot of power into clean sound like those Dynaudios, a lot of power is desirable.  All else being equal.

[pbrstreetgang]

What is the effect of back EMF with hughe VCs? Do these SP techs have big VCs?

[lonewolfny42]

I haven't even been in the same room with SP Timepieces but I do have a lot of in house experience with 2way dynamic speakers.  A case in point was the Dynaudio predecessor to their Confidence One.  It's a 4ohm speaker with average efficiency for the breed.  I drove them with 150w monoblocks with less than a meter of cable.  One interesting feature is that this model has a massive voice coil.  The translation of that is that when a big bass transient comes along- with sufficient power- that speaker is up to the occasion as I expect the Timepieces might also be.  By occasion I mean you'll think the walls of your room have just bowed!!  I know I did.  Completely filled my room and changed my expectation of what is possible.  So, if the Timepieces will turn a lot of power into clean sound like those Dynaudios, a lot of power is desirable.  All else being equal.

Right on target Jim....clean power - clean sound...

[Double Ugly]

What is the effect of back EMF with hughe VCs? Do these SP techs have big VCs?

I can't answer either of your questions, but Bob says he addressed back EMF in the design of his speakers.

In fact, Bob has provided me with very clear and detailed explanations as to why it is not an issue with his speakers on more than one occasion, but I forget far more than I remember nowadays. 

[Double Ugly]

I haven't even been in the same room with SP Timepieces but I do have a lot of in house experience with 2way dynamic speakers.  A case in point was the Dynaudio predecessor to their Confidence One.  It's a 4ohm speaker with average efficiency for the breed.  I drove them with 150w monoblocks with less than a meter of cable.  One interesting feature is that this model has a massive voice coil.  The translation of that is that when a big bass transient comes along- with sufficient power- that speaker is up to the occasion as I expect the Timepieces might also be.  By occasion I mean you'll think the walls of your room have just bowed!!  I know I did.  Completely filled my room and changed my expectation of what is possible.  So, if the Timepieces will turn a lot of power into clean sound like those Dynaudios, a lot of power is desirable.  All else being equal.

Right on target Jim....clean power - clean sound...

I get the feeling ol' Jim might like SP Techs... whatcha think, Chris? 

[lonewolfny42]

I haven't even been in the same room with SP Timepieces but I do have a lot of in house experience with 2way dynamic speakers.  A case in point was the Dynaudio predecessor to their Confidence One.  It's a 4ohm speaker with average efficiency for the breed.  I drove them with 150w monoblocks with less than a meter of cable.  One interesting feature is that this model has a massive voice coil.  The translation of that is that when a big bass transient comes along- with sufficient power- that speaker is up to the occasion as I expect the Timepieces might also be.  By occasion I mean you'll think the walls of your room have just bowed!!  I know I did.  Completely filled my room and changed my expectation of what is possible.  So, if the Timepieces will turn a lot of power into clean sound like those Dynaudios, a lot of power is desirable.  All else being equal.

Right on target Jim....clean power - clean sound...

I get the feeling ol' Jim might like SP Techs... whatcha think, Chris? 

Yep.....

Just put on "Free For All" and sit back......

[lonewolfny42]

I have a photo....OK...its not the "new speakers"...their the TP 2.0's...but I still love them anyway....



Taken at a Rave a few years ago...being inspected by Sergio...

[Double Ugly]

I doubt you can use them, but I have a few (mostly poor ) pictures of Timepiece 2.0s and 2.1s in my gallery.  See the link at the bottom of my post.

Here's a comparison of the front (studio finish 2.1 on the left)...


and here's the back of the speakers.


'Course, they're 'dated' now, having been replaced with the 3.0s and the gorgeous hardwood front panels.  Maybe you can use them to show how the aesthetics have changed through the years. 

Dated or not, I still love 'em, too. 

[justaudiomagic]

Thanks for all your replies and very interesting reading!!

But one thing I dont understand -> More power isnt always equal better sound  Far from It
I know Belles gives more power than Dared but Dared sounds much better

[Double Ugly]

But one thing I dont understand -> More power isnt always equal better sound  Far from It

True statement.  But IME - and what I think Chris is saying - more, *good* power often does equal better sound.

SP Tech speakers can sound amazing with low wattage amps.  While 100W/side may not seem very low, it is compared to what I'm using now (600W/side).  I used my 100W amps for years with tremendous results, but as good as the Butler Monads were, there's no substitute for a lot of good, clean power! 

Many speakers respond positively to 'more' and 'better' power, and as Chris will attest, the SP Techs are certainly no exception! 

[lonewolfny42]

Right.... Jim said it better than I related.....GOOD POWER.

I've heard Belles....and Dared...and if you were to combine both a Belles amp....and a Dared tube preamp....it would sound really good...try that when you get the speakers....