[Wally King]

To all of you Ultra DAC users out there:

From the website, it appears that the DAC has just one input.  Am I  correct?

Has anyone used the Toslink adaptor? If so, have you had any problems with it?

Do inexpensive transports seem to work OK with the DAC? Has anyone compared different transports with different results?

Thanks.

[Wayner]

It only has one input. I use the toslink adaptor for my Sony ES XA20ES and it sounds fantastic. Yes, Sony was stupid enough not to include coaxial output on this particular CD player.......one wonders why? I don't know. Otherwise if you don't like the toslink idea, get a nice player with coax out.

Wayner  aa

[Wally King]

Yeah, I also have a Sony changer with only the Toslink output.  Go figure.  I see, however, that the newer Sony c2000es changer has both Toslink and coax outputs.

[Wayner]

I have been spying up a couple of Marantz models, one in particular is tha SA-8001. It has a killer transport (single well) and I think it would sit very well with the Ultra DAC.

W

[geezer]

Do inexpensive transports seem to work OK with the DAC?

I use a $60 Philips DVD player. It works beautifully.

[martyo]

I use a $90 Sony DVD player with the Ultra, it has a coax out. I had a Sony changer before that with a coax out. When the changer took a crap last month and I was looking for a replacement I ran across quite a few units with only the Toslink out. As I also use it for video it has one set of each video output, HDMI, component, S-video,and standard. My brother uses an inexpensive Phillips as well, like geezer. I would have bought that one except it didn't have the full compliment of video outputs.

[BrianM]

Wally,

The thinking is, if you can't design a DAC that doesn't need an expensive dedicated transport to sound its best, then maybe you shouldn't be designing DACs.  The AVA DAC, fed by a Sony DVP, sounded better than my $2000 CD player did.  It also sounded the same to me whether I used the Sony or the $2K player as a transport.

Now granted, this is hifi audio, where people will always have opinions about this or that indispensable tweak, and where any change you make can create differences, real or perceived, to what you are hearing.  But it looks like nobody here is losing any sleep spinning discs on their Best Buy players.  The sound is terrific.

[Wayner]

Yes, the Marantz is somewhat expensive and is not for everyone. I have been thinking about it only for its transport mechanism which is supposed to be awesome. It should also retain some value if I decided to get it and don't want it later on. Marantz also makes a lower priced model, CDP-5001 for $299 that is also supposed to have a nice transport with S/PDIF and toslink outputs. That is probably the one I'd get, but that's just for me. There aren't alot of single well inexpensive players left to choose from in the lower price range, if you need a new one.

Have a good one. 

Wayner

[Dan Kolton]

Marantz CD player (single well) or Pioneer DVD player: makes no difference in sound through Ultra DAC but CD player has more bells and whistles.

[Brett Buck]

Yes, the Marantz is somewhat expensive and is not for everyone. I have been thinking about it only for its transport mechanism which is supposed to be awesome. It should also retain some value if I decided to get it and don't want it later on. Marantz also makes a lower priced model, CDP-5001 for $299 that is also supposed to have a nice transport with S/PDIF and toslink outputs. That is probably the one I'd get, but that's just for me. There aren't alot of single well inexpensive players left to choose from in the lower price range, if you need a new one.

      I have a CD-5001 and it seems pretty solid. I would however note that on the first player I got, the CD drive was dead out of the box. Got the replacement and it has worked perfectly for about a year.

     It's unclear to me, if you have an outboard DAC,  whether going for a $300 machine or 3-4 much cheaper machines at 1/3 or 1/4 the price is a better strategy. My gut feeling is that, if I had a DAC, I would go look for blowout specials on CD or DVD players with coax or optical output, get 4 of them for $30 a piece, and just replace them as they die. Out of 4 of them, the chances are high that you would get one that would last forever.
   
   All it does is spin the disk and read the bits. As long as it doesn't have dropouts, with a properly designed DAC it doesn't make any difference at all in the sound.

     Brett

[Wayner]

Good point Brett,

I would use the more expensive player in a multi-system installation, using the decks D/A converter for very casual listening in a parallel system (I have 3 systems in my studio). This would keep me from doing the constant cable swapping. I guess I considered the SA-8021 because I may move it to another location where I don't have a AVA DAC. Any serious listening is done through the AVA DAC.

Wayner

[Wally King]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the feedback.

Right now, in my main system, I use a Jolida 100 with the Underwood level 1 modification for serious listening and a Sony changer for casual listening during dinner, parties, etc.  It  seems that with an Ultra DAC I could get by with just the changer and move the Jolida to my 2nd system.

It'd be nice to have two inputs, however, in case I want to add a squeezebox or something similar in the future.

Another question, and maybe Frank can answer this one: the folks at Benchmark make a big deal about how the DAC-1's sound is basically impervious to changes in transports, as if that consistency in sound quality, regardless of the transport used, is not the norm.  Or is that just hype?

[Brett Buck]

It'd be nice to have two inputs, however, in case I want to add a squeezebox or something similar in the future.

      This is going to make me seem rather ignorant, but is there some reason that the digitial coax cannot be switched with a regular rotary switch/input switcher using normal RCA line connectors? I can't see why not.

     Brett

[Panelman]

Another question, and maybe Frank can answer this one: the folks at Benchmark make a big deal about how the DAC-1's sound is basically impervious to changes in transports, as if that consistency in sound quality, regardless of the transport used, is not the norm.  Or is that just hype?

Wally, the point Benchmark is making is that because the DAC 1 reclocks the data internally, so transport induced jitter is removed, it doesn't matter how much jitter is created by the transport or the connection between the transport and the DAC1.  Whether there is a wide variance between transports in how much jitter they introduce into the signal I don't know. However their test data shows that you get the same results regardless of the transport.

Sean

[Wally King]

Sean,

So, if a given transport produces jitter, and if a DAC does not remove it, or compensate for it in some way, can the transport not have a negative impact on the sound the DAC is capable of reproducing?

The AVA website doesn't mention the potential negative impact of jitter in the process of transmitting the data on a disc to the end product, which will hopefully be wonderful sounds emanating from the speakers.

Which goes back to my original question about the quality of the transport used with the Ultra DAC.  On the other hand, the AVA website states that "any good tracking CD player or DVD player" is all that's needed. 

[BrianM]

Wally,

I'll assume Frank's out having a life on a Saturday (or maybe feverishly soldering gear, by solderlight) and try quoting him from another thread I remembered reading:

Jitter is measureable, but it occurs way outside the audio range - a nanosecond kinda thing - not an issue regarding musicality.

1-bit DACs that can only retrieve a small fraction of the digital data stream on a one pass basis is a huge issue.  Our 16-bit DAC can retrieve all the information at all frequencies.  A one-bit DAC is limited by its clock speed, typically only about 1 percet as fast as necessary.

For example at 10,000 cycles per second with a DAC with a ten meg clock speed, you can only retrieve 1000 of the 64 thousand samples per cycle that is actually on the disc.  Not high fidelity in my book and a bit more of a problem than jitter.  Our input chip locks onto the digital data stream in any event, so jitter is never an issue at all.

Frank Van Alstine

[Panelman]

Sean,

So, if a given transport produces jitter, and if a DAC does not remove it, or compensate for it in some way, can the transport not have a negative impact on the sound the DAC is capable of reproducing?

The AVA website doesn't mention the potential negative impact of jitter in the process of transmitting the data on a disc to the end product, which will hopefully be wonderful sounds emanating from the speakers.

Which goes back to my original question about the quality of the transport used with the Ultra DAC.  On the other hand, the AVA website states that "any good tracking CD player or DVD player" is all that's needed. 

Wally,

we are in agreement in thinking a DAC needs to account for interface induced jitter ,whether at the transport or interconnect, to produce the best signal. I was  trying to support your thought that jitter needs to be addressed. I am not saying that Frank's Ultra DAC does not handle jitter in the best possible way  but I do agree that it is helpful to have some sort of way to compare one DAC to another even if that is only a description of the method used to address the jitter issue.  I recently bought a Benchmark DAC 1 and the increase in all levels of detail over my Squeezebox 3 with a Channel Island power supply is very large. Although the Squeezebox is not state of the art the DAC in it is pretty  good so I think there is validity in thinking the Benchmark's ability to remove jitter is vital to its sound.

Sean

Sean

[BrianM]

Incidentally...

Having no life myself this evening, it made for interesting reading just now comparing the product presentations of the AVA DACs, on Frank's website, to that of the Benchmark DAC1 at the Benchmark website.

Along with some important technical details about the D/A, with particular emphasis on the analog stage, the AVA website mainly waxes enthusiastic about the musicality of their DACs.

Whereas this is how I'd summarize the Benchmark website:

Jitter! Jitter jitter jitter! Ultralock jitter jitter, jitter (jitter) Ultralock jitter jitter -- jitter.  Jitter!  Ultralock!

I've never heard this well-regarded DAC, but from their website you might come away with the impression that once you've conquered "jitter" the rest just basically takes care of itself.  To my knowledge, there is no consensus that jitter can be heard, when it is present.

[martyo]

It'd be nice to have two inputs, however, in case I want to add a squeezebox or something similar in the future.

When I asked Frank about adding another input or switch to the Ultra for a SB or streaming before I bought mine he suggested this:http://www.inday.com/da4x/da4x.htm

[kurtbauer]

Hi guys,

I wanted to address WK's question about the adapter.  I have the multi-input, auto-sensing variation of the 977, the 1177, and am using it with good results --  I actually own two of them.

I am currently running one into an 6N1P Ultra DAC to accommodate three inputs:  Toslink from and an Airport Express, S/PDIF Coax from a CAL Delta CD transport, and a USB from a Mac or PC (depending on who's sitting at the desk) via a HagUSB adapter.  The auto-sensing function is very convenient.

HOWEVER, the auto-sensing circuit is susceptible to RFI.  If it's in the wrong position it can thing there's an input where one does not exist effective switching inputs erroneously.  It's not terribly touchy but I had problems when it was too near a desktop PC.

kurt