[Zero]

A very modest budget aimed towards piecing together a nice pre amp/amp combination, or an integrated for serious two channel listening.

I have had limited experience with seperates in my home, mostly working with AMC, Rotel, and Carver.  I have never ventured into tubes, and have little funds to maintain an active all-tube system.
 
Just a little backround - I enjoy virtually all kinds of music.   I enjoy versitility above all else.  I love a piece of equipment that breathes life into the music, large soundstage, finese, and with lots of headroom for musical peaks.  

The main speakers I will be using, are Polk Audio LSi-15's.  Dont let the Polk name fool you, these things mean serious business.  I've also got my wires ready to go: Kimber Hero interconnects, and Kimber 8tc Bi-wire.

All thats left is the Amplifier*s*, and Pre-Amplifier.  The cd player will come later..

This is where I could use some suggestions from the experts.

I am no longer interested in Rotel, Parasound, Nad, AMC, and anything of the like.  I am looking for the next level in sound.  I found that next level in Musical Fidelity.  Their A 3.2 integrated can be had for 1k on audiogon, however, I do take issue with paying a stranger this amount of money...

While 1k is limited, I have noticed quite a few possibilities in terms of value that may fit within this range, both used and new.

Right now, I am heavily leaning towards:

Norh LeAmp2 mono blocks *300 USD each*
Norh Tube pre-amplifier *400 USD*

I welcome any suggestions or ideas as to leads, and items to be mindfull of.  

Thanks,

Z

[F-100]

I guess you're new here so you probably haven't read all about the LeAmp II saga  and the rebadged SE-9 tube amp.

Base on your setup, I would look into the Odyssey Khartago amp and Etesian preamp for around 1K price range.  

Welcome to the circle

[maxwalrath]

I know the feeling of being nervous forking over that much money to someone on the internet. I recently made purchases approaching that range, and if I've found that I can feel comfortable if I:
1.send a personal check
2.use certified mail
3.only deal with a person who has many positive feedbacks
I know there are a few horror stories, but the great majority of people with great feedback deserve it and make sure they don't do anything to mess up their good rating.

As for amp recommendations, I just picked up a Classe CAP100 that sounds terrific, and I think the entire Jolida line is great and would leave you money to spare for your CD player. I only heard the LeAmps once for about 5 minutes, but they really made a pair of VMPS RM1's sound great.

[thepogue]

but let me just throw this out at you...

I kinda know where your coming from when you say "next level" but i'm not sure you'll get there from here....(as the saying goes)

if your looking to the next level in you system "as a whole" do you think that the Polk's really out do the Parasound/Adcom/Carver class? (i just added the adcom as they seem to fit into the group...BTW I run an Adocm 555 II)

and do you think that the cost of 2 LeAmp's will be stepping up some from the above brands on the used market...for my money, I'm not to sure to be honest.

i guess i'd need to know what your "next level" means...louder, soundstage, more bottom end, claity...you get the point...but i would say this, i think the most improvment for the least amount of money can be had by upgrading speakers not amps. i'm not at all saying there's no difference but I'm keeping you 1K price-tag in mind....also room acoustics overall are the cheapest upgrade i know, not so much buying acoustic panels but in the placement of your system.

also let me say for the record i'm waiting for my LeAmps to get to me so I'm not at all saying they are not a possiablity but the jurys still out on them and I'd not drop all me marbles into that basket.

i know this probably don't do ya much good....just food fer thought

good luck    Peace, Pogue

[warnerwh]

You're right about those Polk speakers, bought my girlfriend a pair for Valentines day and was amazed how well they sounded for a couple of hundred dollars.  If you're willing to go with a tube pre there's Conrad Johnson's that can be had for about 400 and you won't lose anything if you don't like it, very good sounding and well made. Also the Cary AE 3 can be had for a bit less.  Go to audiogon.com and check out what's available.  There's alot of amps that will suit you.  The tube pre may convert you over to tubes. The preamp is very important and is arguably the piece of electronics with the most effect on the sound.  Don't know what you have against Parasound or Rotel. They both make decent amplifiers.  You can get a Rotel 991 with 200wpc for about 500.  Or for a little more you can find a used Belles 150A and you are definitely moving up. At your price point you're somewhat limited but can still have excellent sound. The Musical Fidelity is a good choice and there are other integrateds to consider too like Jolida, Arcam, Creek.  THE most important thing though is if you can afford a thousand then I'd buy new SPEAKERS.  That's the only way you're going to get to the next leve. I agree the Polks are damn good but near what you can get for 6-800 used. Speakers don't wear out and will definitely have a very positive effect on your system.  Please consider this.  Amps and preamps won't get you as far up the food chain with the little Polk's.  Please reconsider what you are doing! If you buy used off of Ebay or Audiogon you'll get much more for your money and if for some reason you don't like something you can just get your money back.  Please don't be afraid to send alot of money to someone who has excellent feedback. Even if they have one negative but 70 positives it's more than likely some jerk that gave the negative to the guy.  I've been doing deals on the net for years and have had almost all positive experiences.  People with low feedback may also be a problem so shy away from them til you get your feet wet.  If you use a postal money order the feds will work on your case.  Do priority mail with signature required.   Also stay away from foreign countries at least for now. Lots of scams going on.  You can also do searches for equipment in your area so you could just go pick it up, it's always worth looking and both audiogon and Ebay offer that capability. Best of luck, you came to the right place.

[jackman]

Hi,
I have never heard the Polk model you have, however a guy I respect greatly has said some very good things about Polks.  Dennis Murphy has a modification (new crossover) for the RTi28, a speaker that could be purchased for about $180.  He says the drivers used by Polk are very high quality and the cabinets are very well made (real veneer on this model), however the crossover parts and design are not up to par with the rest of the speaker.

Cheapening up on the crossovers is a pretty "safe" way for some manufacturers to cut costs because it's a part of the speaker most people don't know much about.  Dennis says this model was "tipped up", probably to sound good in a five minute demonstration at the local Best Buy and the frequency response was far from flat.

The good news is that the revision is cheap, easy (okay, you have to know a bit about soldering) and, above all, really makes this a speaker that is hard to beat, even by DIY standards.  You may want to have someone who knows something about crossover design measure those Polks and see if they could benefit from similar treatment.  Here is the link:  http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=RTi28.html

I haven't tried any of the new generation of digital amps, but they sound very promising.  I would definitely encourage you to include a digital amp (like the new Carver professionals everyone is talking about) into your demo group.  If you decide to buy used, which can be a very economical way to buy gear, make sure to buy from people who have lots of good feedback or people from this site who are well-known.

Good luck!

Jack

[BikeWNC]

I personally think that the MF int amp with your speakers and wire would tend towards the bright side.  Just MHO.  That said, I would not shy away from tubes, especially in the preamp.  Most tubes in preamp duty last a very long time and most units run trouble free for years.  I am biased in this regard because I have a tube preamp.  But I also think the Odyssey pair mentioned would be a good match (if they maintain the family sound, I haven't heard those particular models).  There have been several threads here lately about the new Sony digital gear and the Scott Nixon amps.  I would check those out along with perhaps a Dodd Audio tube pre.  I don't know how they would work together for you, but they are in your price range.

Andy

[_scotty_]

A very modest budget aimed towards piecing together a nice pre amp/amp combination, or an integrated for serious two channel listening.

I have had limited experience with seperates in my home, mostly working with AMC, Rotel, and Carver.  I have never ventured into tubes, and have little funds to maintain an active all-tube system.
 
Just a little backround - I enjoy virtually all kinds of music.   I enjoy versitility above all else.  I love a piece of equipment that breathes life into the music, large  ...

A6M-ZERO,If you live in U.S.A. go to a Best Buy or Cicuit City and take home a Panasonic XR45 or XR25S receiver 100digital watts x 6ch for $299.00,with digital input,toslink and spdif.Best Buy has a thirty day return policy no questions asked.You could try a good combo player for a transport and feed it into the receiver.This could cost less than a grand for the whole thing.You could put 25days or so into break-in and decide you didn't like it
and get your money back.They same thing could be tried with the new SONY receivers and receiver/ players.You can try before you buy.
A paradigm shift is happening,don't get caught spending a $1000.00
dollars on what is essentially mid-fi/hi-fi entry level electronics when it may be possible to leap frog the awkward stage entirely and step in something
very good to start with.See other threads on this subjecthttp://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=2297,http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=4782

[Rocket]

hi z,

i can't comment on your speakers as i have never heard them.

i do however agree with another comment and i think the best sound gains are always with your speakers.  2nd is amp/pre and so forth.

if you want to buy new i don't think you can go past the new odyssey amp and passive preamp for $1000k us (gee i wish i lived in the us hifi is so cheap there).

i have had successes buying second hand gear from audiogon and i live in australia.  just make sure the person has lots of feedback to guage whether they are reputable.  if you buy second hand the pass labs aleph 3 amp (not integrated) is a wonderful amp and can be purchased for about $800-900us.

best of luck.

regards

rocket

[Jonathan]

I personally think that the MF int amp with your speakers and wire would tend towards the bright side.

Having owned the A3.2, I would have to agree. In my system, it was quite thin and cold sounding.  

If you've decided to go with a good quality integrated amp, you should definitely look at the Unison Research Unico. It's an 80 WPC hybrid tube/mosfet unit, and it sounds REALLY nice.  Depending on how my experiment goes with the new Sony AVD C70ES (see thread here on the 2-channel board) I may be putting mine up for sale (either that or the Sony)

 Let me know if you're interested in either one.  

Jon

[Zero]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for your responses! I only wish I could address each of you individually - but I will decide to rather lump this up into one response.

First and foremost, I will state why I do not favor the like of Rotel, Nad, Parasound, etc.  Do not mistake those comments as expressing dissatisfaction for the gear, on the contrary, they do sound wonderfull with the right gear.  I simply have not found anything which combines excellent attributes.  

For example: Nad has a quick sound, very dynamic, but thin.  Its the thin/hollow part of the NAD sound that bothers me.

Rotel has a lot of personality to it, and does just about everything right for the price - except - headroom.  In comparison to Nad and AMC, it just sounds as if the headroom is flat, along with the gain.  

And so on and so fowarth.

Musical Fidelity cought my attention immiediatly, but as someone mentioned, it may be a bright combination.

As for the suggestions of upgrading speakers - really gentlemen, I think I have found gems.  While it is against my better judgement to state this, I will. ..  I compared my Lsi-9's head to head, versus the B&W Nautilus 805, retailed for 2000.00  USD.  Powered by, at the time, Rotels flagship gear. I prefered the 9's ten fold.  To me, and the others in the room, the Nauts stood no chance.

The LSi-15's (floorstanders) are phenominal speakers.  However - they absolutely require good sources, good wire, a good room, and loads of "break in" time.  These need the red carpet treatment.  The good thing is, once you scratch their back - they will scratch yours.  Naturally, these many not be favored by everyone.  I respect that.  However, I have absolutely no intention on replacing these speakers. I've heard none better not only in their price range, but triple...

I am very interested in cross-over upgrades.  I started to dip into the world of DIY, that didnt last long.  I would be *VERY* interested to see what cross over upgrade possibilities there would be for the 15's.  Im too scared to touch them and experiment myself..

Odyssy Amps eh?  And where can these be had for the price mentioned? Audiogon?

Speaking of which, I do not have a checkbook.  This could very well present a problem.

While I agree that speakers are where the biggest change in sound occurs, I simply lack components at the moment.  Period.  I want to buy the absolute best I can for the money.

Recent exploits in the new digital technology and these Carver pro-amps have sparked my curiousity quite a bit.  I wonder what their noise floor is like... I hear rumor that most pro amps are noisy as hell at low volumes.

New possibilities demand new research.  

I realize that the 1k limit is boarding on insane in terms of what I am looking for.  I have come to discover that most of the gear that falls within this catigory just sounds "different"... not inheriently "better" than one another.  

Thanks all! I am sorry if I missed out on responding to anyone!  I never expected to recieve such lengthy replies! Looking foward to more input/opinions!

Regards,

Z

[Tyson]

I would recommend van alstine amps and preamps, they are amazing value even at full price (I sold my odyssey amps when I heard the Van Alstine Omega III amp).  Omega III and Omegastar are super smooth, extremely detailed solid state gear w/amazingly good bass.

[AKSA]

Z,

At your budget, and with your expectations, I feel you are pushing the limit, particularly if you want amp and speakers.

You might address the kit market.  There are economical choices to be made in this arena, but you'll need some assembly skills.

Cheers,

Hugh

[Zero]

Tyson,

Checking out Van's gear right now.

AKSA,

I realize that I am pushing the limit, and I intend to take it to the limit as much as possible! But - I already have my speakers bud.  Thats payed for!

[Xi-Trum]

Strictly for the budget, I'd recommend the IRD MB-100 (LeAmp) for the amp OR the IRD Purist for the preamp.  They're both pretty neutral.  I'd recommend the combination if your speakers are on the "warm" side or if you treat your room.

If not, pick one or the other.  If you get the Purist, I'd probably go with the Stratos for the amp.  If you opt for the LeAmp, I'd go with the Bent as the preamp.  In either case, that would put you over the budget.    Sorry!  

On the other hand, if you get both the LeAmp and Purist, you still have some bucks left over for room treatment stuff.  Check out a pack of Eigth Nerve.  Or if you're a DIY type, grab some acoustic foam from foambymail.com.  You're find that room treatment is one of the best upgrades you'll ever make.

Good luck!

[Hantra]

Well. . You're going to get a million recommendations on this. . .

One I can offer without reservation is to stay away from the Musical Fildelity.  I don't know how the hell Musical Fidelity gets all their glowing reviews, and I'm not one to point conspiracy, or "review buying" fingers, but I have never heard a Musical Fildelity piece that was any more than just mediocre at the very best.

I have heard it all from the A3CR, the A3/24, the big Nuvista stuff, the new SACD player, etc.  I mean, it's pretty for the money, and sounds okay.  But man when you spend $1,000, it all sounds pretty good.  It's the rare piece that is exceptional.  I'd listen to as much as I could, even if out of your price range.  See what you like.  Find it used, and use escrow if you're scared.

I don't want to turn around and make a recommendation after what I just said, but I will say go listen to Plinius.  Find a newer 8100 online used, and settle in for the long haul.  I've done Audio Note single ended, Dynaco push-pull tubes, big McCormack solid state, Mid-Fi crap Marantz monoblocks, Jolida hybrid, Arcam, Gainclones, and even inductive power supply beastie amps like the Aloia, and I haven't had a piece of gear that brings more emotion to the table than this Plinius I have now.  Some folks say there is a "Plinius conspiracy" as well, and maybe there is.  All I know is all the Plinius reviews are a hell of a lot more accurate than the glowing MF reviews.  

OMG. . Almost forgot.  The LeAmp is absolutely one of the worst amps I have ever heard at ANY price.  

L8r,

B

[warnerwh]

Being as you are happy with the Polk speakers and I'm very familiar with their sound let me suggest a tube integrated or a tube preamp.  Tubes would be an excellent compliment to those speakers.  The sound will pour out in a rich and liquid soundstage on those as they image well already.  Thanks for the thread, that may be a good gift for my girlfriend.  The SS stuff you are looking at isn't going to sound much different than what you are using.

[Tonto Yoder]

If other posts haven't dissuaded you from the Musical Fidelity stuff, Upscale Audio advertises one remaining open box on the website(it's a bit over your budget)--
"Musical Fidelity A300 - (open w/ warranty) ! Regular five year warranty parts and labor. This is one of the greatest integrateds ever. Has remote control, dual mono construction( two toroidal transformers) Built in MM/MC phonostage. 150WPC! Top rated around the world as one of the best period. Sold in the UK for $2350! Retail $1695, yours for $1279 open box w/ 5 year warranty! Down to only one left "

May not be available still (since Kevin doesn't always update his site regularly) but it certainly would be more comfortable buying from a respected dealer than some guy off Audiogon. Haven't heard the particular model, so this is just a heads-up rather than a recommendation.
Upscale also has other demos at attractive prices if you want to check out his site (including the Unison stuff mentioned above).

[Zero]

At some point in the near future, I will invest in room treatment.  However, considering my living space for now, I cannot go "balls to the wall".  A few sheets would be the best I could manage.

Ah - the can of worms I have just released.  So many suggestions on so much gear to where I will have absolutely no chance to listen to it.  From Thai's to Kiwi's! There are not too many hi-fi shops where I live, the only two that are worthwhile are roughly an hour away.  This complicates matters as most purchased have to be done in the blind.

Tubes are another possibility, and the Jolida integrated has definately cought my eye.  And as for the Musical Fidelity - its still in my mind thats for sure.  Right now I am on overload, need to worm my way through the rubble and make sense of it all.

There is a new rumor about -- That these digital amps possibly being the next best thing to zen whoopy.  I may have a chance to get the Sony es str-da5000es at a very very attractive price.  If I can get a trial period with the purchase, I may take that route and pray to God that the rumors are true.......  

If they are - great - just saved myself a lot of time and cash, and will be sure to steer others in the same direction.

If not - damn - back to the drawing board.  Will also let others aware of the results.

Thanks again for all your contributions folks.

Z

[Xi-Trum]

OMG. . Almost forgot. The LeAmp is absolutely one of the worst amps I have ever heard at ANY price.

Hmm... Can you enlighten us and let us know a cheaper amp that sounds better?  Also, in what ways is it better?  Thanks.

I know Brian Cheney had heard the (stock) LeAmp driving his RM40 and thought it was much better than a more expensive amp.  (Was it NAD?  I don't remember but his comments can be found somewhere on AA)