[slow_down]

I originally posted this last night in the Odyssey circle but figure it may be more appropriate here.

I'm thinking about dabbling in Vinyl and am trying to figure out what kind of specs I need for a phono preamp to go along with my Odyssey Etesian which is a passive preamp (i.e. adds no gain).  From what I can tell, some phono preamps like the Rolls VP29 are out of the picture because they don't offer enough gain themselves.  Any suggestions on more viable choices that won't break the bank?  I haven't decided on a turntable yet and still have a lot of research to do on that end.  Whatever choice I go with will be at the "budget"  level - looking to keep turntable/preamp/cables all below $600.

[sbrown]

A little bit more info in needed before we can help.  First, what cartridge are planning on using and how much output does it have?  Also, what is the input sensitivity of your power amp?

From my perspective, you'll need enough gain in the phono stage to power your amp to full output.  Not that you'll be playing it that loud, but you'll need it to keep dynamics lively.  To calculate, the output of the phono stage is cartridge output * 10^(phono gain/20).  For my case, I have 0.25mv cartridge being driven by a phono stage with 66 db gain.  v2 = 0.25e-3 * 10^(66/20) = 0.499 volts.   Now compare this number to the input sensitivity of your amp.  Hope this helps.

[slow_down]

A little bit more info in needed before we can help.  First, what cartridge are planning on using and how much output does it have?  Also, what is the input sensitivity of your power amp?

From my perspective, you'll need enough gain in the phono stage to power your amp to full output.  Not that you'll be playing it that loud, but you'll need it to keep dynamics lively.  To calculate, the output of the phono stage is cartridge output * 10^(phono gain/20).  For my case, I have 0.25mv cartridge being driven by a phono stage with 66 db gain.  v2 = 0.25e-3 * 10^(66/20) = 0.499 volts.   Now compare this number to the input sensitivity of your amp.  Hope this helps.

Thanks for the help.  I didn't realize it was this complicated!  I wasn't able to find the input sensitivity of my amp but with a little more research should be able to.  Here are the specs I could find for my Khartago amplifier.  Can the sensitivity be derived from these?

Input RCA
Power @ 8 ohm 2 X 110W
Output Class Class A/AB
Frequency range 2 - 400,000 Hz
Memory 60,000 uF
Current Delivery Total 45 Amps
Distortion % Not audible <0.04
Damping Factor >500 Continuous
DC Offset <1 mV

I couldn't find the specs for my Etesian preamp, but here's some language from a review I found:

"The Etesian is a passive preamp. For those of you not familiar with a passive preamp, this type of design uses a transformer to ‘step up' the voltage from your source (your CD player or whatever) that your amplifier sees. One of the advantages (some audiophiles believe) is that you eliminate all of the capacitors, resistors and voltage gain devices (opamps, tubes or transistors) typically associated with an ‘active' preamp..."
 
"When we take a look around the inside of the preamp, the first thing you notice is the PC Board. This is the same board that he uses in opamp based Tempest preamplifier. The PC board is nice and beefy with decently thick traces. The board is stripped of all its active components for use in the Etesian design. The only thing left is a Pi filter to regulate the transformers 15 volt secondary windings which are used to power the switching relays."
 
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0705/odysseyaudio.htm

[sbrown]

I googled your amp looking for the input sensitivity with no luck.  I would contact the manufacturer/distributor to get the information.

As far as your passive, it's probably not going to have a phono stage in it.  Phono stages by default are active devices that need power from either the wall or batteries.  Sounds like you'll need a phono stage to plug into one the inputs of your passive.

There are two parts to every phono stage.  First there is the equalization portion that converts the output from the cartridge into a what one would normally hear from a line level source.  Secondly, the phono stage has to amplify the small signal from the cartridge into something that resembles a line level source.  A high output moving magnet cartridge has an output of 5mV.  Compare that to your typical CD player that outputs 2V - a factor of 400x greater!  That's where the gain we talked about comes into play.  It's typically measured in db.

[slow_down]

I'm sorry, I probably wasn't clear enough in my first post - I know my preamp definitely doesn't have a phono stage.  That's why I'm looking to buy one   I found another Etesian owner who's happy with a Hagerman Bugle that provides 40dBV so that makes things a little clearer I guess.  Thanks for your help.

[sbrown]

Hmm.  The gain seems a bit low.  With high output mm cartridge, the output would only be 0.5V.  Unless the input sensitivity of your amplifier is fairly low, it might be a bit flat sounding.

[Scott F.]

Thanks for the help.  I didn't realize it was this complicated!

It's not complicated at all. If you are looking for an extremely good sounding phono stage that won't break the bank, hunt down a Graham Slee 2se with the upgraded power supply. You can get for a new one that will cost you about $400 plus the cost of the PSU1 (the upgraded power supply). LP Gear carries them in stock. LP Gear If you watch AudioGon you can find them in the $250 to $300 range.

There are several member here that love theirs. I have listened to all of Grahams gear and ended up buying several pieces. Personally, I use the Jazz Club as my reference phono stage. The 2se comes pretty darned close to the Jazz Club when you compare them. I picked the Jazz Club because of the variable EQing across the years. I've got a pretty big vinyl collection and I needed the additional functionality.

The Slee is ridiculously good for the money. You can't go wrong with that choice (unless you want to spend more for the Slee Reflex Gold or the Jazz Club).

I couldn't find the specs for my Etesian preamp, but here's some language from a review I found:

"The Etesian is a passive preamp. For those of you not familiar with a passive preamp.........<big snip>.....used to power the switching relays."
 
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0705/odysseyaudio.htm

Hey....who wrote that? .............

[slow_down]

I couldn't find the specs for my Etesian preamp, but here's some language from a review I found:

"The Etesian is a passive preamp. For those of you not familiar with a passive preamp.........<big snip>.....used to power the switching relays."
 
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0705/odysseyaudio.htm

Hey....who wrote that? .............

Hey Scott, next time you see Klaus Bunge he should buy you a beer, because your review of the "$1500 Audiophile System" was my first exposure to Odyssey Audio and I sincerely doubt I would be an Odyssey owner now but for your writeup.  I ended up with an Etesian and Khartago, but got the bigger Nightingales instead of the Epiphonies.

But your recommendations for a phono stage are WAY out of my league.  This is a baby step into vinyl for me, and I want to keep costs to a mininum.  I've even been half-thinking about getting that Audio Technica SL1200 clone that everyone raves about, as it is only $200 and has a built-in preamp!   If I go for something more substantial it might be a real SL1200 or who knows what else - still have more research to do.  But in any event, I'm hoping to spend $100 or less on a phono preamp for now.  Just for context, my main source right now is a stock SB3 (albeit with an upgraded ELPAC PS) going straight into my preamp - no external DAC - and I am VERY happy with the sound.  Maybe a cheap turntable and phono preamp is plenty enough for me? 

Anyway, thanks for your help and keep up the good work at enjoythemusic!!

[Scott F.]

Thanks for the kind words  That Odyssey system absolutely kills for the price.

With $100 budget, you may need to up the anti just a wee bit to get a fair sounding phono pre, but not too much. Don't know if you can solder but there is Hagerman Bugle kit on AudiogoN right now. There are a few other pieces that won't break the bank (too bad) like the Rotel at $125, Cambridge for $125 or if you can stretch the budget a bit further the Rolls at $175 (surprisingly good for an inexpensive phono stage). If you are going to stretch to $175, that Slee 2se at $225 would be really tempting but I understand you are on a limited budget.

I'm not really hip on those inexpensive turntables with an integrated phono stage. I'm afraid if you spend too little on a turntable setup, you won't be happy and will be turned off to it forever. See, it won't be the vinyl's fault, it will be the supporting electronics that are the culprit. Your typical inexpensive phono stages tend to be veiled and bandwidth constrained. Couple that with an inexpensive cartridge an you can get a very lack luster sound from a turntable.

Once you get past the phono stage, eBay has quite a few really good sounding, entry level vintage tables to pick from. You really do have to watch which one you go for but we can help sift through your choices. I know John The Chair Guy will chime in especially after this statement but personally, I would avoid the plastic bodied tables. Sure you can do like he did and pack it full with 10lbs of plastic-clay but thats more than a bit weird for most people (sorry John). Plus, your typical plastic table has a thin aluminum platter that rings like crazy. Going all the way back into the 1970's I was damping the aluminum platters with Moretite but unless you get them perfectly balanced, you will cause bearing wear, increase the rumble and cause speed stability issues.

There are a number of vintage tables (both direct and belt drive) that have a decent plinth and platter which won't cost you a fortune.

You know as I sit here and type, I guess at least from my perspective, the best suggestion I can make is to maybe wait, save a bit more money then invest in a decent quality, entry level phono rig. If you've already got a couple of hundred tucked away, I'd snatch up that Slee 2se on AgoN. Start with a good phono stage then save and make wise choices from there. Who knows, after you get a good phono stage, you'll stumble by a yard sale or thrift store and find a decent turntable for five or ten bucks. Heck, I found a Dual 1219 in the wood case outfitted with a perfectly good Shure V15 and two spare AT cartridges and headshells for $5 at my local thrift store. It is now my dedicated mono system used for 78's but it would do perfectly fine as an entry level turntable in a stereo rig.

You are probably asking yourself what kind of overall budget I'm talking about. I think $500 - $600 should get you to a very comfortable place, all in. Say $250 for the Slee, $150 to $200 for a table and between $100 and $200 for a new cartridge.

If you still want to go the immediate route, have a look at those phono stages at AgoN hovering around that $100 mark.

Hope that helped.

[TheChairGuy]

I know John The Chair Guy will chime in especially after this statement but personally, I would avoid the plastic bodied tables. Sure you can do like he did and pack it full with 10lbs of plastic-clay but thats more than a bit weird for most people (sorry John).

Hey Scott - I truly res-emble that remark 

Beyond the oddness of it, it really does help matters.  A $30 deck (belt drive is fine...I like the JVC's with metal tonearms, not plastic...JLA-20's go for a song on ebay), 10 lbs of Plast-i-Clay (not mortite, gawd that crap tears your skin off after long use), a good thick wood cutting board underneath, and good sub-$100 cartridge will have you spinning very capable tunes for under $200.00

Some brass toes or squishy puds (maybe squash balls sawed in half work?) under the deck, a second cutting board under the first, a squirt of teflon oil or silicone oil in the main bearing (for belt drive) and tonearm bearing (if you can reach them..no matter the drive system) and maybe an inexpensive isolation transformer dedicated to your deck and for $300 you will likely have gotten even more capable performance.

At least good enough to show off vinyl virtues and give you a taste of $$$ multi-thousands many of us spend on the hobby.

As for phono stages, I've heard only excellent things about the Cambridge 540 and 640 stages for little more than $100.00

So, for little more than $400.00 and elbow grease, you could achieve a fine-sounding analog front end comparable in sonic quality to CD players of this price.  For $200.00 more, buy a record cleaning machine and it will likely reduce a $600 CD player to 2nd tier status in your listening.

The AT120 DD Deck has good reports on it's sonic virtues....member Charles Calkins reported on it a few topics ago and is very pleased with it.  It did benefit from an outboard phono stage, however and bypassing the internal one.  It's another way of spending $400-odd and getting very capable performance.

By the way, all of the above assumes the cartridge geometry is correct (and belt isn't old and stretched for belt drivers)....and it requires no engineering aptitude.  That is, near anyone can do it (as I am substantial evidence thereof  )

John

[slow_down]

So Scott and everybody else, I think I still need a more definitive answer to my original question - given that my Etesian is a passive preamp, does that mean I need to get a phono preamp that provides more gain than others?

As for TheChairGuy's suggestions, that's pretty compelling stuff you laid out there, but despite your assertions of ease, I still worry about the difficulty and learning curve involved, and suspect I'd find a way to screw something up   Still, makes me want to read up some more before I jump into buying a new and expensive (or even cheap) record player.

[Scott F.]

The type of phono stages you are looking at will be for moving magnet (MM) as opposed to moving coil (MC) cartridges. As a very general statement, they will have between 35 and 45dB of gain. That will work just fine with the Etesian with the following stipulation, just make sure that whichever cartridge you buy (or get) with your turntable has a reasonable output, say above 2 or 3mV. Considering your budget, the cartridge you will likely end up with will have a reasonably high output (above the 4mV range).

Using those as "generalities", you should be fine. When it comes to plastic plinths or something else, John and I will have to arm wrestle over that one    Bottom line, either will work just fine. It all depends on how much work (or money) you want to put into the table. It all comes down to personal preference. My preference would be to start with a more substantial table rather than investing in a cheap table and then at some point down the road tossing that money and reinvesting in a more substantial design.....but thats just me. The plastic clay works too if thats the route you want to go.

John (TCG), lets not confuse the hell out of slow_down with the math of cartridge outputs and gain calculations. If we do, he may stick to CD's 

Enjoy the journey 

[TheChairGuy]

Yup, I understand, man  Tho no innate technical knowledge is needed, a basic proficiency and understanding of turntablism likely is.

In answer to your question, yes, you will likely need a reasonably hi-gain phono preamp to continue to enjoy your Etesian passive preamp. Most out there qualify for that, however.

There is someone on Audiogon with two nice preamps that might fit the bill for you.  They are both solid state and dual mono (very helpful to have with phono use I've found): http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/search2.pl?seller&Abuhannibal

The Musical Surroundings unit can sound a bit soft...so it might not work with your Etesian (unbuffered, passive preamps can sound a tad soft....which helps round off some aggressive sounding CD players)

The Superphon is one of the stellar budget full function preamps made in the past 25 years.  The Phono section is very good on it.  You can use it as your main preamp...or simply run your TT into it's phono stage and run another IC to your Etesian.  Most likely this will have more than sufficient gain this way.  Or, you can see how a very well designed active preamp sounds to you and use it as both line and phono use.

The seller's price is a tad high unles retails have risen over the years on that preamp....$150 to $200 is more like it (swapping out 10 capacitors within to Blackgates is a terrific upgrade in itself).

If you buy the Superphon, ask if the phono stage hums (mine developed one over the years).  If it doesn't, you'll likely be very pleased with it.  Add the AT120 direct drive unit and a good $100 cartridge and you'll be lovin' the vinyl life.  It will sound different than your digital set-up...but you will enjoy and understand what all teh fuss about analog playback is with this tandem I bet 

John

[Scott F.]

slow_down,

Here is a nice little table to consider that is under $200. Its a Luxman direct drive. It comes with a Grado Black. Stereo Trading Outlet The store is out in Philly which may cause some shipping issues as you are in Chicago but if you talk to the guy at the store and he packs it properly,   it should arrive in good shape. A slightly better mat would be a nice tweak to improve performance.

....and another on eBay eBay

[TheChairGuy]

I'm not trying to one-up Scott's sage advice, but you can buy a new AT120 table and fitted AT95HE (Hyper-Elliptical) with several extra's for $249.99  It has the aforementioned phono stage already included, which you will likely want to change to something better outboard.  But,a Cambridge 540P or 640P (or similar decent stage) won't run you a ton of money.

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATPL120HIFI&Category_Code=TURN

It seems rather fabulous value overall...so long as LPGear doesn't charge $150 for shipping 

LPGear, I believe, is the importer of the previously mentioned Graham Slee phono stages - so those guys know a few things about vinyl, for sure.  Maybe they'll package deal a nice Graham Slee phono stage in there, too - can't hurt to try and see.

John

[slow_down]

I'll have to take a hard look at that Luxman - it's certainly a handsome turntable.  And yeah, the Audio Technica that TheChairGuy just mentioned is what I was talking about before, although this one's apparently been upgraded a little by the store and sells for $50 more.  That actually makes me feel even better about it, as it means someone has gone over it more carefully, I would think.

Thank you all for the kick-ass advice!  Given me a lot to chew on.

[royphil345]

That Luxman looks like a very nice table. The Audio Technica really does suffer as far as wow and flutter specs compared to just about any vintage direct-drive or the Technics SL-1200. Not knocking it though... Seems there were quite a few compromises made in the entry-level "budget audiophile" tables the last few years and the prices keep going up. Seems you really have to skip that first level to get a decent table these days and spend quite a bit of cash. Probably why the AT and Technics tables are getting so popular. I'm the proud owner of a 1200 myself and I don't think there's any way I could have gotten more for my money. I think I'd probably go with the AT over the entry-level belt-drives these days (especially considering it's $100.00 cheaper and you get the built-in preamp too)... and good used tables are getting more expensive and harder to come by... For awhile there, you could pick up something pretty nice for around $100.00 any time you wanted. People seem to have caught on to what the good models are and they're hard to come by or sell for too much.

I'm not sure if any entry-level phono stage is going to cut it with a passive pre. There's usually is a significant difference in gain between phono and CD using an entry-level phono stage. I know the Jolida JD-9A would get the job done. It has two sets of outputs. One with insane gain, specifically for use with a passive pre. The reduced outputs I use seem to supply a little more gain than I was getting out of an entry-level phono stage. A little over $400.00 shipped though...

The AT95E is supposed to be a very nice sounding cartridge for cheap. LPGear throws in their hyper-elliptical stylus for it. Sometimes upgrading a stylus can make a cartridge more analytical and not as musical as it was. Not sure what the case would be here. Seems like a good deal though. The stock cart on the AT could use replacing because it's elliptical and tracks pretty heavy. A bad combination for record wear.

[TheChairGuy]

A recent test by TONE AUDIO on the AT-PL120 can be found here: http://www.tonepublications.com/images/pdfs/TA_011.pdf

Pretty compelling test...a good deck for $300...made better by a few simple enhancements by LPGear and a better price of $249.99 for the whole package (including professional mounting).  The heavier mat alone could help this little deck a lot....it's the major problem with all of these DD decks....and it's greatest benefit....unerringly good speed control and music-robbing energy/vibration travelling on the same drive path. Dratz.

Some enterprising maker needs to make a DD deck with a split platter (inner and outer) to de-couple the problem area from the playing record surface.  A la Rega and Thorens belt drives...which need a split platter less.  I think Denon made these a looong time ago - but the spinners they make today bear no relationship to those great ones of old.

Until then, DD decks will be hampered by an unabated path of vibrations moving right to your records and stylus. 

John

[royphil345]

I don't know about that review...

He says he replaced his Technics 1200 with a Rega 3 and never looked back, leading one to believe the difference was substantial...

Then he kind of lumps the AT and Technics tables together, when frankly, the difference in specs is the difference between unacceptable and impressive. There are other rather obvious differences in build quality. Although, I'll admit I haven't heard the AT...

Then he goes on about how small the differences are between the AT table and his regular table...

It seems very much like another review that takes popular opinion of the Technics 1200 and dresses it up like it's the guy's personal experience. He did supply some info on the AT table that might be helpful to someone though...

...and you gotta' love how he recommends buying the AT where it's $100.00 more than it sells for anywhere else... Needle Doctor's prices seem competitive for the most part. Maybe selling the AT table for less would make the rest of their tables look too overpriced?

[slow_down]

OK guys, I finally pulled the trigger on a turntable and will hopefully soon be in possession of an Ariston RD-11s with a Shure V15 cartridge.  I've heard some varying opinions on exactly what kind of phono preamp will be enough for me.  Now that I've got the turntable and cartridge pinned down, any ideas on a particular cheap phono preamp to use with my passive preamp?  Would I be insulting my system with a Cambridge 540P?