[nrenter]

I'm sorry...I lost the point of this thread. I'm movin' on.

Enjoy!!

[TheChairGuy]

I think you started with a general statement about vinyl playback and now you're trying to narrow it down to some vary specific components so that only your list can qualify.

Well, ok. It's your thread, so to speak.

Once a thread is out there, it's no longer mine...it's public domain.

Currently my set-up is unqualified based on my list  .....I just happen to think I've greatly minimized the possibility of the tonearm in the overall equation - until now.

There is a law of diminishing returns in everything in audio - but I think money and efforts are best spent at attaining a hi-quality tonearm first and foremost, secondarily the deck (so long as the one you have is adequate) and thirdly, cartridge.  I've been rather aimless previously in improving my vinyl playback...now I have a playbook of sorts.  Hopefully, it's helpful to someone else out there 

I love the range of responses...to each is own 

John

[lazydays]

I passed on adding the phono stage to the mix...I wanted to confine it to the analog front end alone.

I think you can get away with a decent phono stage...and inordinate amount of attention is paid to it.  Personally, I like the excellent phono stages in some full function preamps, integrateds or even receivers.  It's more direct that way...less rca's and less hurdles for measly cartridge voltages to leap thru and over.

I really do think the tonearm is most important piece of the three others...followed by a reasonably good deck that keeps speed (I'm not sure I can hear with conviction, 0.25% or so deviation) and is isolated from external 'energy' and a cartridge that tracks well and sounds good enough to you 

Really, I think Rega and Roy Gandy (and others) have the right equation all along for affordable vinyl playback. Focus on the tonearm and get the rest reasonably right and you'll hear good playback.

John

the phonostage impacts the signal about as much as anything else in the system (assuming all is setup right). It allows you to load the cartridge, and setup optimal gain.
I've also found that a phonostage can kind of tailor the sound to your personal wants.
    But actually one should setup a turntable from the basic foundation and work his way up. That being the phonosection is next to the last thing he works with. If the table is setting on a table that will act like an antenna recieving vibrations; then he's got trouble. So you gotta start with a good isolation platform. With that you can make about any suspension (or non suspension) table work. The table itself is a constant argument, and you pick out whatever you want, as I did. The arm is the next piece to worry about. Some suspect tables really come to life with a good arm, but others with a good arm wont benefit as much. Cartridges are like cars, and everybody has a favorite. But the cables are another factor. Still to a lesser degree than the others so far. Lastly I've found good IC's tobe a plus.
gary

[BobM]

Boy, this can just go round and round and round. I think we all agree that everything affects everything else, so I would like to propose a new baseline for discussion (and I know everyone has their own opinions, but at least it's a pplace to start).

Lets assume that all analogue components are of decent quality, set-up is correct, everything is adjusted properly, electricity is flowing adequately, interconnects and cabling passes music transparently, the planets are aligning (mostly), and physics as we know it are functioning properly. So what component would benefit most to a jump upward one or two levels?

I'd like to suggest the following as a start, if I may, mostly because they are common and widely used (note to self, most people would consider this the end of the line because it is actually a pretty decent setup)

Rega RB300 tonearm
Grado Platimun MM cartridge
Hagerman Coronet phonostage
(non suspended TT base of your choice - lets figure a basic Rega P3 platform then)

Jump to something like:
Moerch DP6 tonearm or an SME V or something similar
Dynavector Karat MC cartridge or a Benz Ruby or something similar
Ear 834P or a Hagerman Trumpet or a JLTI or some such
pick a better base, perhaps a Basis or a VPI or some such

Go at it... or am I just stirring up another hornets nest?

Bob

[TheChairGuy]

Boy, this can just go round and round and round. I think we all agree that everything affects everything else, so I would like to propose a new baseline for discussion (and I know everyone has their own opinions, but at least it's a pplace to start).

I'd like to suggest the following as a start, if I may, mostly because they are common and widely used (note to self, most people would consider this the end of the line because it is actually a pretty decent setup)

Rega RB300 tonearm
Grado Platimun MM cartridge
Hagerman Coronet phonostage
(non suspended TT base of your choice - lets figure a basic Rega P3 platform then)

Jump to something like:
Moerch DP6 tonearm or an SME V or something similar
Dynavector Karat MC cartridge or a Benz Ruby or something similar
Ear 834P or a Hagerman Trumpet or a JLTI or some such
pick a better base, perhaps a Basis or a VPI or some such

Go at it... or am I just stirring up another hornets nest?

Bob

Not anymore (and likely less) than a hornet's nest I unintentionally stirred up 

I hope to know find out if the tonearm is the first place to improve - 'cause I just had a wacko moment and bought an Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III arm    I'll use alternating in the VPI and Technics SL-1200 set-up to see how it responds to two very different analog front ends.

It was discounted....but it was still more than a couple of my set-ups put together in cost.

I just kept hearing how natural/lifelike and dynamic their arms are......that's pretty much what I'm after in vinyl.  I haven't really experienced super-dynamic vinyl since the late and lamented Townshend Rock/Helius arm/modded Grado I owned 20 years ago.

So, I put my money where my big mouth was this time....and a few days will tell the tale for me.

John

ps - I also bought a VIZ Isotap WP-27a isolated transformer.  It's fairly unique as it allows for step down voltages...so both DC Servo (Technics) and AC Synchonous (VPI) motors are isolated and, in the case of the VPI, it will also allow me to reduce voltages to further reduce motor noise once motor is up to speed.  It reportedly (on VinylAsylum) will provide some 2/3 of the benefit of VPI's SDS controller...which also provides a steady 60hz waveform.  For $50 on ebay, I had to try one 

[blakep]

For me the cartridge is the last in terms of maximizing performance.  You'd be surprised how well a Denon DL 103R in plastic or even better nuded sounds on top notch table, arm, phono stage.  Since cartridges are wear and tear items, I'd rather spend money on a better table, arm and phonostage than the cartridge. 

Cartridges need to be chosen to match the rest of vinyl system, cartridges also seems to have a much poorer resale on audiogon and can be picked up cheaper second hand.

I agree completely.

As I think my phono stage is probably of higher quality than my arm and am really itching for an arm upgrade, I'd rank the importance this way:

1) Table
2) Toss up between arm and phono stage
3) Cartridge


This is not to say that the cartridge is unimportant but rather to say this: in the overall financial scheme of things, good turntables are expensive. Good tonearms and phono stages might be less expensive but not really cheap. Surprisingly good cartridges can be had on the "relative" cheap.

All, of course, IMO.

[toocool4]

I hope to know find out if the tonearm is the first place to improve - 'cause I just had a wacko moment and bought an Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III arm    I'll use alternating in the VPI and Technics SL-1200 set-up to see how it responds to two very different analog front ends.

It was discounted....but it was still more than a couple of my set-ups put together in cost.

I just kept hearing how natural/lifelike and dynamic their arms are......that's pretty much what I'm after in vinyl.  I haven't really experienced super-dynamic vinyl since the late and lamented Townshend Rock/Helius arm/modded Grado I owned 20 years ago.

So, I put my money where my big mouth was this time....and a few days will tell the tale for me.

John



Well if we are talking tone arms I don’t know much about the Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III but what I use is the Dynavector 507 Mk II, what an arm. You can actually see it in my avatar on the left. This is what I use on my Acoustic Solid one to one. One of my friends who was actually a Hi-Fi dealer / DJ said he has used it on a Technics SL-1210 and it sounded amazing on it, personally I think it’s an overkill a £3000 arm on a SL-1210 not to say the SL1210 is a bad player.

Check it out here www.dynavector.com/products/tonearm/e_507mk2.html

Chris

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Chris,

Sweet arm - I read about them long ago.  Some swear they are the best, end all, I understand 

John

[BobM]

I just kept hearing how natural/lifelike and dynamic their arms are......that's pretty much what I'm after in vinyl.  I haven't really experienced super-dynamic vinyl since the late and lamented Townshend Rock/Helius arm/modded Grado I owned 20 years ago.

John, I've got a few upgrades under my belt.
(1) going from a Grado Platinum to a Dynavector 20X-H made an audible difference. Big increase in speed and dynamics and the ability to pull more info out of the groove.
(2) Then going from an Audioquest PT6 to a Moerch DP-6 arm. It was better, but the improvements were subtle, even with the better cartridge mounted on both. The biggest change was the better bottom end and quieter vinyl.
(3) Then I went from a Hagerman Coronet to a Hagerman Trumpet. That was a change from good to great. Huge dynamic increase. Much better bottom end. Better extension at both top and bottom. A huge gain in the ability to pull music out of the groove. This was the cat's meow. Now I feel that I am getting what the arm and cartridge and table are capable of.

Yes it is all related and the weakest link will hold you back, be it arm, cartridge, table, phono stage, interconnect or whatever. I think that is the bottom line. They all work as a unit and the balance between them is what is important.

Enjoy,
Bob

[TheChairGuy]

Much to your point, Bob.

I was hearing some annoying artifact in my playback ever since I got the Technics - I wasn't able to 'reach out and touch the music, so to speak.

I had found my JVC deck (stuffed with 9 lbs of Plast-i-Clay, damped platter, etc) sounded best on 4 firm brass toe/cones supports.  So, I was mounting the Technics SL-1200 the same way without much thought going into it.

I swapped them out last nite with 4 compliant squishy puds from LAT International (that have been quite beneficial in other uses over the years) and, BLAM, back came all the focus and sweet music.  I was listeing to Keith Jarrett in my room again  The Technics seems not to be as well resistant to outer and maybe inner (the motor?) vibration as the JVC....and the squishy puds trapped and dissipated the issue far better than the brass toes can.

I could have a mega-expensive tonearm, deck and cartridge - but it's held back sonically by the isolation supports alone.

Truly an illustrative case, if there ever was one, of the weakest link holding it all back  $40/set of 4 squishy puds were the only difference in the system last nite 

John

[twitch54]

Yes it is all related and the weakest link will hold you back, be it arm, cartridge, table, phono stage, interconnect or whatever. I think that is the bottom line. They all work as a unit and the balance between them is what is important. Bob

Agreed , therefore I can not put a specific 'pecking order' in place. The word 'synergy' really applies to the assembly of a good analog front end.

[andyr]

Well if we are talking tone arms I don’t know much about the Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III but what I use is the Dynavector 507 Mk II, what an arm.
Chris

Great arm ... I had a DV505 for about 25 years on my LP12 but I eventually got sick of its clumsy VTA adjustment and zero azimuth adjustment ... so traded it in on a Graham 2.2!   

Regards,

Andy

[toocool4]

DV505 on an LP12, how did that work? The DV505 is a bit on the heavy side for a LP12. 

Did you have problems getting it to work properly?

[andyr]

DV505 on an LP12, how did that work? The DV505 is a bit on the heavy side for a LP12. 

Did you have problems getting it to work properly?

Yes it is a bit on the heavy side but, 25 years ago the Linn dealer I bought my LP12 from considered that to be the best arm available (ie. streets ahead of the then-top Linn arm and the Grace 707), so that's what he sold as his top combo.

You just had to wind up the spring nearest the armboard.

The G2.2 is a lot lighter, though! 

Regards,

Andy