headphone output

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codling

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headphone output
« on: 22 Sep 2003, 08:45 pm »
hi james,

are you concidering adding an headphone output in future upgrades for the sp1.7?

i'm missing using them a tad :(

cheers carlos

nicolasb

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headphone output
« Reply #1 on: 23 Sep 2003, 09:24 am »
Note to James T: much of what I'm about to say has already been said in emails a while back - my apologies for boring you with it again, but I think it might be pertinent, and I'd like to hear Shane's opinion if he has a moment....

There are a number of different ways one could think about for providing headphone output. The ideal, I guess, would be to include not only a headphone jack but also Dolby Headphone processing ability, but this would definitely need a more powerful DSP. Installing a headphone jack with circuitry behind it to drive headphones nicely might also be a significant hardware upgrade.

But, if Mr Parfit happens to be around, I'd be interested to know 1) how complicated and expensive it would be to be able to provide a stereo downmix of a digital source at the Tape or VCR outputs, 2) how much more difficult and expensive it would be to do that at the same time as producing multi-speaker output, and 3) if there's a better way of listening through 'phones with present hardware that I haven't thought of.

I'm sure that, like me, most serious headphone listeners already possess an external headphone amplifier. If I were listening only to analogue sources then that would be easy - just plug the headphone amp into the Tape or VCR outputs, and whatever the source is gets correctly routed there. But there's no output from the Tape or VCR outputs when the input is digital rather than analogue.

What I currently do is to plug the headphone amp into the L&R Front RCA outputs - which are available, because the processor-to-amp connection is balanced. But for that to work the processor has to be outputting a pure 2-channel stereo signal, which would affect anyone else in the room who wanted to listen to the output through speakers. Why would I be listening to headphones and someone else to speakers? Because I am partially deaf and I need it louder. But even if that weren't the case, it would still be annoying to have to reconfigure the processor to pure stereo every time you want to use 'phones.

For the SP1.7 to produce a stereo downmix signal at the Tape or VCR outputs would actually be useful for other things besides headphone listening. For example, here in the UK there's an increasingly popular device called a Sky+ Box which is a combined digital satellite TV set-top-box and hard-disk video recorder. When it records a program it directly records the original digital satellite bitstream, so that playback quality is literally identical to the live program. It also has a digital audio output (optical). Unsurprisingly the result of feeding the digital audio output through the SP1.7 sounds substantially superior to what the Sky+ box's own DACs can manage.

The problem comes when you want to archive a recorded program onto video tape (I have an old DVHS machine) or onto a DVD Recorder. What you'd like to be able to do then is use the Sky+ as a video source, but the SP1.7 as an analogue audio source. As it stands, this is rather fiddly for the reasons already outlined. (Here in the UK, we also have terrestrial digital TV broadcasts, and some terrestrial digital set-top-boxes also have digital audio outputs. Anybody using one of these with any kind of high quality video recorder - tape, DVD, or hard disk - would probably also like to be able to use the SP1.7 as an audio source).

stp1200

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headphone output
« Reply #2 on: 25 Sep 2003, 02:42 pm »
This requires a hardware upgrade.  We need a faster DSP to provide multi-channel in addition to a stereo downmix.  Same with the Dolby Headphone.

Upgrading and maintaining the SP1.7/SPV-1 is a priority for us.  You will see a pin-for-pin compatible DSP module from us that is capable of both of these features.

Routing the downmix to the record outputs and fitting a headphone output will require a bit of finesse on the hardware side, and we're looking at ways we can do that for current SP1.7 owners in a cost effective manner.

nicolasb

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headphone output
« Reply #3 on: 25 Sep 2003, 03:53 pm »
Quote
You will see a pin-for-pin compatible DSP module from us that is capable of both of these features.

Cool!

Like to tell us when?  :P

(Just kidding!  :D )


Quote
in a cost effective manner

Of course there's cost effective, and cost effective. The thing which would cheer me up more than anything else is if you could figure a way for upgrades like this to be done by the UK distributor so that the unit doesn't have to be shipped to Canada and back to be upgraded. This makes Bryston upgrades very pricey in Britain. The cost of, for example, upgrading an SP1 to an SP1.7 in the UK is roughly double what it costs in the US or Canada.  :(

stp1200

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headphone output
« Reply #4 on: 25 Sep 2003, 07:30 pm »
PMC handles all of our service in the UK.  They're a smart group of people and they're more than capable of doing the actual upgrade procedure themselves.

The hitch is that we like to run the full procedure of tests on every upgrade unit.  The test procedure takes about 2 hrs following the 100 hr burn-in.

We have a state-of-the-art AudioPrecisionSystem2-based test setup that's probably worth about $60,000.  PMC is not equipped with this gear.  

We'll be meeting with the PMC guys at AES, so maybe we can bring up this issue.

nicolasb

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headphone output
« Reply #5 on: 2 Oct 2003, 09:59 am »
Quote
We need a faster DSP to provide multi-channel in addition to a stereo downmix.

If/when you do this, I think a nice option to add would be the ability to generate a Dolby Surround signal, with a matrixed-in surround channel - or perhaps even to go through the Dolby PLII algorithm in reverse. (With PLII one starts with a stero signal and ends up with 5 channels, so in this case you could start with a 5-channel mix and work out what stereo signal, if fed into the PLII algorithm, would result in the 5-channel output sounding as close as possible to the actual 5-channel signal you've got).

This would give you a neat way of archiving something that has been broadcast with a 5.1 Dolby Digital soundtrack (as quite a few films now are on UK digital satellite) onto a medium that supports only stereo sound without losing as much of the original sound track as one normally would.

stp1200

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headphone output
« Reply #6 on: 3 Oct 2003, 02:12 pm »
This downmix capability is, in fact, already built into the Dolby system.

If we want to compose a 5.1->Stereo downmix just for listening, then we use the Dolby recommended equations as follows:
Lo = 1.00*L + 0.71*C + 0.71*Ls
Ro = 1.00*R + 0.71*C + 0.71*Ls
Really not so much processing.

If we want to compose a 'Dolby Surround' compatible downmix, we don't have to do a reverse ProLogic or PLII operation.  Embedded within the bitstream is some Control Metadata that basically tells us how to do the downmix.  This data is in the form of mixing coefficients that are placed there by the mixing engineers and producers using the Dolby encoder tools.  This is know as an LtRt downmix.  

The 5.1 mix is almost always compared to the Dolby Surround mix, to check for audible differences that can be corrected.  So, if we use this metadata for our record-out downmix, the decoded result will be closer to what the producer originally intended it to be, and really the next best thing to the 5.1 signal.

nicolasb

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headphone output
« Reply #7 on: 3 Oct 2003, 04:55 pm »
:thumb:

Daniel Datchev

Re: headphone output
« Reply #8 on: 1 Nov 2008, 09:32 am »
Hi Mr.Tanner,
I own B-100SST and I expiernce the following problem.
When I`m listening using my headphones Sennheiser HD595 I hear
hum noise caused by the Piltron transformers.
I don`t know the reason for this, mayby is the grid system in my appartment which is
two prone insead of three and the neutral and ground are shortcut in the outlet.

James Tanner

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Re: headphone output
« Reply #9 on: 1 Nov 2008, 09:37 am »
Hi Mr.Tanner,
I own B-100SST and I expiernce the following problem.
When I`m listening using my headphones Sennheiser HD595 I hear
hum noise caused by the Piltron transformers.
I don`t know the reason for this, mayby is the grid system in my appartment which is
two prone insead of three and the neutral and ground are shortcut in the outlet.

Hi Daniel,

Do you mean hum through the headphones or mechanical hum from the transformers when you plug the headphones in?

james



Daniel Datchev

Re: headphone output
« Reply #10 on: 1 Nov 2008, 09:41 am »
Just to add that Sennheiser HD595 are rated 50oms
which could be a problem, but I haven`t experience such problems with NAD which
is two prone configuration with phase inverter.
Daniel

Daniel Datchev

Re: headphone output
« Reply #11 on: 1 Nov 2008, 09:44 am »
This is electrical hum which I hear through headphones.
It is masked in the music but is heard on quiet passages.
Daniel

James Tanner

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Re: headphone output
« Reply #12 on: 1 Nov 2008, 10:19 am »
This is electrical hum which I hear through headphones.
It is masked in the music but is heard on quiet passages.
Daniel

Hi Daniel,

It sounds like a grounding issue.  I have the B100 at home and we have one setup in engineering which we use headphones on all the time and I can not say we have an issue with hum?

james

Daniel Datchev

Re: headphone output
« Reply #13 on: 1 Nov 2008, 10:32 am »
Hi James,
to me it is surely ground issue that`s way I accepted it as normal
situation. I have intention to have additional ground cable from the apartment to the basement
where I could hooked the ground and split the ground and neutral line.
So after doing these I`ll let you know what`s come out.
Daniel

Daniel Datchev

Re: headphone output
« Reply #14 on: 4 Nov 2008, 11:08 am »
Hi James,
I`ve split the neutral and ground but it remains the same.
The hum doesn`t change with turning the volume knob it
stays constant.
Daniel

James Tanner

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Re: headphone output
« Reply #15 on: 4 Nov 2008, 11:16 am »
Hi James,
I`ve split the neutral and ground but it remains the same.
The hum doesn`t change with turning the volume knob it
stays constant.
Daniel

Hi Daniel,

I assume you have tried different headphones as well to eliminate a problem being in the phones?
I tried my Grado headphones this morning on my B100 and they are dead quiet.

james

Daniel Datchev

Re: headphone output
« Reply #16 on: 2 Mar 2009, 03:39 pm »
Hi James,
having NAD C320BEE amp which has as B100-SST pre-out and pre-in
I tried the following connection.The Bryston pre-amp with NAD amp section and NAD phone out.
There is no power noise.
I not competent in scheme, but I suppose the connection between pre-amp section and headphone socket is placed
between the two transformers and causes hum.
Daniel