[6sigma]

I inquired elsewhere, but got limited responses. Perhaps you can help.

In the 70's a system made up of a Dynaco ST70 amp, Dynaco PAT-4 and AR3a or Dynaco A-25 speakers was often referred to as, "providing sound equivalent to systems costing 3 or 4 times as much." Restarting this hobby after a long absence, I'm interested in finding a similar value/sound proposition with a budget of $1000 to $2500 to start. I want speakers, amplification and a CD source to start. (A turntable, Transporter and Squeezebox can wait a bit.)

System preferences: I like a neutral/flat system with great soundstaging, detail and openness
Music: vocals, classical, orchestras, broadway/pop, country (no rap)
Level: moderate listening levels - unless inspired!
Room: 16x22x8, but I'll be in fairly close proximity (almost near-field) to the system

At various times I owned Maggies (2.5R), B&W801s, stacked Advents and electronics from Adcom to McIntosh. As I start again from scratch, I'd love to hear your recommendations for the right combination of speakers, amplification and CD?

Thanks.

[S Clark]

Do you have the time, tools, or inclination to build your own speaker cabinets?   If so, you might want to look into the GR-Research kits to get the most bang for the buck in speakers.  If not, you might look at AV123 as an option for high value audiophile quality speakers.  I'll let other's speak to amplification and sources.

[miklorsmith]

That's a significant range of price.  At $1,000 for everything you're going to be really limited.  At $2,500 I think you could do a nice job.

Think in terms of system trajectory.  How much upgrading is likely to happen?  When would this be?  Is a one-input system good, or do you need input switching?  If you plan to do significant upgrading, I'd put a big chunk (like over 50%) into one part while planning future moves.  If it's going to be stable for a while a balanced approach probably makes more sense.

Some will say spend the money on source first, as you can't recover what has been lost with a bad source.  Others are speaker folks holding if the speakers won't make the sound, it doesn't matter what's coming in.  Both are right of course, but I'd target the speakers first. 

They must fit the room and your ears.  They have the greatest variation in sound, which makes choices tough but supremely important.  Finally, they will determine what amplifiers are "in the running".  I believe going with more-efficient speakers will allow higher quality amplifiers of less power in your price point.

The Squeezebox is a good idea but there's some pain starting out if you have a big CD collection.  However, it does have volume control and in the right system you could go straight to the amp.  A high-gain CDP with volume control could do this as well or you could even use some EVS-type inline attenuators.

Not getting a preamp will save dough.  An integrated/receiver might be the way to go but I think they limit your ability to upgrade/fine tune in the future.  Going with a better amp and saving for a preamp would be the way I'd go but I'm on the forever-upgrade (un)strategy.

I'd give Omega speakers with the hemp drivers a good look but I'm sure you'll get lots of suggestions.  Try to hear as much as you can before buying, especially with speakers because buying/selling them is way worse than other stuff.

Even though I promote "speakers first", I was recently without my big speaks for a while.  I was running $12k worth of electronics into some speakers I built (I'm a total hack) and it sounded freakin' great.  Lesson?  Lotta ways to skin the kitty.

[JLM]

Welcome 6sigma,

So you're a QA/QC guy.

Lots has changed since the 70s: bass has gotten much tighter; tubes are popular again; cabling (interconnects, speaker cable, power cords) are almost considered components onto themselves; CD players have gone from saviors to villians and better again; SACD/DVDa have come and gone; vinyl is popular again; a couple variations of digital amplifiers are available; main line retailers are primarily into home theater now; the room is finally recognized as an important factor; and of course the impact of the internet.

Several specialty camps/products have come about: SET (single ended triode) amps (low power, expensive tubes); high efficiency speakers; OB (open baffle) dipole/bipole speakers; single driver speakers; digital room correction; and impedence buffering to name a few.

I consider Audio Circle as a high value place.  Many/most of the vendors here sell internet direct, so prices are lower but service is better.  Buying is more difficult, but shopping is easier.  Finding local vendors, attending equipment shows, reading reviews, and attending local audio clubs/group meetings helps tremendously.

You mentioned that you prefer a neutral/flat system with great soundstaging, detail and openness with vocals, classical, orchestras, broadway/pop, country at fairly moderate levels, in a 16 x 22 x 8 ft room and have a $1000 - 2500 budget.  Just to clarify, for me soundstaging refers to the size of the image and imaging refers to specificity of the individual performers/instruments.

My first suggestion is to plan a system that can be easily upgraded like adding a sub, DAC, pre-amp, and room correction equipment/panels.  If a Squeeze Box, Transporter, or Olive is in your near future I'd go with an Oppo universal player ($170) for now as it is killer for the money and have a remote controlled volume control.  That makes a pre-amp very optional if you aren't interested in additional sources for now. 

For cabling I'd look at Blue Jean, Signal, or Element brands and budget about $250 for a pair of interconnects and speaker cables.

Search Audio Circle for a recent (within the last 6 months) shootout of affordable standmounted speakers will give a good idea of what is out there.  I use Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 standmounts as my HT FL/FR speakers and love them for their good detail, beautiful tonality, wonderful imaging, and high content value (except for the cheesy vinyl clading but you can option up to better finishes).

At the low end of your budget a Trends Audio TA-10 ($150) will deliver 6 watts per channel (not much).  In the middle NAD or Rotel are good names to follow.  At the high end Audio Sector comes to mind.  (IMO good medium powered tube power amps are hard to find in this price range, but hopefully others will chime in.)

Don't forget to check out audiogon.com for used equipment.

[Russtafarian]

Oppo 970 or 980 disc player - $150 to $170

AV123 X-SLS speakers - $300 to $500 pr depending on finish

Spend the rest on a EL34 or KT88 based power amp from Response Audio, PrimaLuna, etc.

The Oppo has remote control volume and can be run directly into the amp.  The Oppo can be modded later on for higher performance.  The speaker crossovers can be upgraded later on for higher performance.

This will make beautiful music for years to come.  You'll use the amp forever and other components can be changed/upgraded as time and technology marches on.

Russ

[nodiak]

Russtafarians suggestion allows a Rythmik sub within your budget, if you or a friend can build the cabinet. Then you'd have true full range for any type music, and tremendous sound quality. I have one (DS12) and it completes my system.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products.html

Don

[6sigma]

Thanks one and all for your suggestions. I'm well on my way, adjusting the budget and getting to specifics. Happy Holidays!

[Norman Tracy]

6sigma,

Great question, it is always fun to help spend someone else’s money! It also makes a nice exercise for those of us with pathologically complex systems to on occasion at least consider Thoreau’s advice to ‘simplify, simplify’.

First let’s look at your budget vs. expectations. According to the inflation calculator I Googled and found here:
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

$1000 in 2006 is equivalent to $252 in 1975 and $2500 in 2006 buys what $633 would in 1975 (I backed up a year because the calculator does not do 2007 yet). I am not sure $250 to $650 would have got you into 'Dynaco ST70 amp, Dynaco PAT-4 and AR3a or Dynaco A-25 speakers' and a source. Maybe if you built the electronics from the Dynaco kits. I'm trying to make a couple of points with the economic math. For separates in 2007 your budget is a bit low, but still capable of getting around a VERY NICE system. (Disclaimer – I manufacture amplifiers but they start at $1995 so some will point out it is in my self interest to talk you up in price. I am doing my best to write in this post as a fellow enthusiast rather than as a manufacturer.) The second point is I observe those of us who have been into hi-fi for 20-30 years really have a hard time getting our heads around what these toys can cost in (the last few days of) 2007. Perspective is everything and regardless of if we are budgeting $250 to $650 1975 dollars or $1000 to $2500 2007 dollars that equates to a lot for a hi-fi to the general public yet more of an entry level to the hardened audiophile. Given your stated experience level I expect you know all of this so let us get on with it identifying today’s overachievers.

My recommendations are based on items I am actually familiar with, i.e. maybe I have not heard the exact current model but I am familiar with the company and its products. For example the already mentioned Odyssey Audio came immediately to mind but I have never actually heard them so I will let that recommendation come from others. Also I am assuming we are talking new purchases, I founded Audio Crafters Guild to serve the DIY market so my heart is with DIY and modifications. However for the sake of this discussion I am assuming a more plug-n-play solution is desired. If you want to go DIY just say so and that is a whole other post.

Speakers

The Magnepan MMG (http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG) just got yet another rave review in TAS and is available factory direct from Maggie for the steal of $550/pair. Now we all know Maggies like a big amp to really get them to stand up and go. Who among us got through the 1980s and 90s without at least one encounter with a pair of MG3.x and some arc welder Levenson, Krell, or Audio Research amp just making the magic happen. Well I am here to testify that while 50-70 quality watts may not provide new insights into the heartbeats starting ‘Dark Side of the Moon’ it will sound better than 90% of the stuff out there.

For box style speakers try and hear Paradigms (http://www.paradigm.com/). When I worked in a hi-fi/home theater/custom install shop three years ago the Paradigms overachieved at every price point thanks to true economies of scale manufacturing and a design staff who really know what music should sound like. In this price range the Monitor and Studio series should both be considered. The overlap is that the entry level Monitor series tops out with models like the 7, 9 and 11 with multiple woofers and serious bass potential. That price level overlaps into the Studio series 20 and 40 where fewer drivers and smaller size reallocate resources to sophistication, the finer sonic details and more up market cabinets.

Electronics

Denon is the main stream brand I associate with a great value + performance equation. Also we can get the amp and source from one source and run the system from one remote control. They have stereo receivers from $299 to $899 or the really tasty PMA-2000IVR integrated stereo amp for $1199 MSRP. For the source I heartily recommend the DVD-1940CI Universal Scaling DVD Audio/Video/Super Audio CD Player. This $369 MSRP universal player sounds way better than it has any right to, I just picked one up for $349 street price thinking it might be bearable until I modify it and it has really impressed stock out of the box. It obviously gets its basic sound quality from a great chipset as the box is light weight and mostly empty in the manner of all <$500 DVD players. Above in this thread other have dismissed using a Universal disk player as supporting failed formats, let me argue the other side and why for an individual like 6sigma putting together a hi-fi rig the universal player is the way to go.

I really like SACDs (and when you can find them DVDs featuring 24 bit 96k or better PCM) finding them a nice (in some cases spectacular) upgrade compared to 16 bit 44.1k CD format or LP sound. Of course the current argument is physical media are doomed and soon/now we will enjoy a brave new world of downloaded hi-res musical bliss. With work experience in both corporate IT computing services and home automation (including music servers) along with being an audiophile my entire adult life results in my have strong personal opinions on this which boil down to keeping primarily on the physical media side including CDs, LPs, SACDs, DVDs, and DVD-As. Inputs to this decision include:

- When I go to amazon.com and search ‘SACD’ I get over 3000 hits, at acousticsounds.com the number is 2600+ titles. It may be a niche format but compared to any other serving the audiophile/music lover market it is a deep niche I can mine for some time to come. Also my tastes in music including 50s-60s jazz, mainline classical and ‘classic’ rock are an almost exact match for the SACD disks in print.
- Well done music servers are expensive in some mix of dollars and sweat equity. At this stage your choice is pony up for the turn-key deal like the Escient (www.escient.com) installed by a system integrator or join the early adopters and piggyback a media player like the Slim Squeezebox or Transporter onto an existing PC+home network. Proponents of the later option typically disregard the cost to install and maintain the network and PC and/or networked attached storage upon which it depends.
- Nobody every plans for backup, those of us to whom it does occur to keep as an issue are typically tardy in performing backups and testing the result through a complete restore cycle. Loss of a hard drive full of music means at the least dragging all the CDs out of storage for re-ripping or at worst paying to download content again. Of course solutions exist all of which drive us further and further away from 6sigma’s stated budget.

This is turning into a blog so I will wrap it up with this system recommendation:

Source – Denon DVD-1940CI Universal SACD/DVD-Audio/DVD/CD Player $369 MSRP
Amplifier – Denon PMA-2000IVR integrated stereo amp for $1199 MSRP
Speakers - Magnepan MMG $550 MSRP
Total - $2118

Enough left over from $2500 for a rack and some Kimber Kable to wire it up with.

Happy Holidays & Happy Listening

[maxwalrath]

A Jolida 502, some upgraded tubes, the next pair of Meadowlark Audio Kestrals that comes up on A-gon, and a used modwright modified cdp.  all are budget killers and they work very well together.

(added, kestral 1's not 2's.  I have had this exact system)

[6sigma]

More great suggestions. Norman, I agree with your economic math as far as inflation is concerned. What's interesting is the impact of Moore's Law on the audio field. It seems that there is at least some mitigating influence on inflation by the faster-cheaper-better electronics boom of the last 3 or 4 decades. As I listen and study this stuff again, I'm seeing tube products at price points that weren't remotely possible a few years ago.

Clearly, the sound available from that $1000-$1500 system in 1975 doesn't really cost today's $4000-$6000. However, if one is willing to spend based on the indexed cost of the systems, an incredible system can be had for $5K-$6K today. What's even more surprising is the great sound that is still available in the $2500 to $3500 range.

Again, I appreciate everyone's advice!

[DaveC113]

Great price for these speakers, and they are a great choice for nearfield listening:

http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/cls.pl?spkrfull&1203796105

The seller says these have the hemp cones, but Fostex drivers are pictured. The hempcones are a $180 upgrade. These usually sell for $750 used if they're in good shape. I'd email him right now if you're interested, they won't last.

I'm using the XRS with a 10" sealed sub... Omega sells a sub for $900, which would be ideal, but less expensive subs are available that will work well too. It needs to be a fast, clean, musical sub and it'll work. The XRS does go down to 40 Hz so you don't need a sub... could be an upgrade later.

I also use a Trends amp and a tube preamp, I felt this was a good place to start... I'm building a SimpleSE KT88/6550 SE tube amp right now as well, but the Trends is a VERY good amp, especially if you run it off an old car battery with a few caps. Another good option is an integrated tube amp. Louis Cochos (Omega's owner, ask him for more info) just got a new st70 with upgrades that he's very happy with for under $1k, or any el84 pp amp like the Vista Audio (or many others) would work well too.

Dave