[JLM]

Toe in/out should be a "season to taste" matter.  With my speakers/room/taste I preferred crossing over just behind my head to just in front of my head and preferred either to directly at me. 

What makes a good speaker for nearfield listening?  Coherence (drivers must be physically close and should have very similar voicing around the crossover frequency with no phase inverting between drivers) and a non-forward/hot/agressive presentation (deep soundstage).

[BrianM]

I believe there are a few 1801 listeners using a near field arrangement, but the number is very small.

Well, I don't want to say I'm now hearing these speakers for the first time...but I do feel I'm now getting more out of them than ever.  Anyone should try this if possible I think.  It could be as simple as moving a chair back and forth; the speakers don't have to be all that far into the room (mine are less than 2 feet).

[BrianM]

I find that, realistically, in the average home no more than one person wants to listen closely to something. For everyone else involved in other things the quieter the better, although "background levels" are usually acceptable.

With the set up I described on page 1 of this thread there was a relatively extreme difference between levels in the chair and the rest of the house, which was part of the plan. It was nice to be able to enjoy decent loudness without bothering anyone.

Most of the time the speakers would be swiveled out for casual listening. Of course with this arrangement they were too close together for "proper" stereo placed just each side of a chair, but I don't listen for imaging when I'm walking around the house!

It did help that they were small, light and floor standing. This wouldn't work for a spiked setup unless the stand top was big enough to allow the speaker to be turned around on it and the speaker itself was not on spikes.

All that is needed is a speaker whose sound comes together at those close distances. Do the 1801s? I haven't heard them.

cheers

I'm not seeing the need to swivel the speakers out ever.  I feel they're now integrating better with the room they're in and consequently sound better in the rest of the house, too.

[BrianM]

What makes a good speaker for nearfield listening?  Coherence (drivers must be physically close and should have very similar voicing around the crossover frequency with no phase inverting between drivers) and a non-forward/hot/agressive presentation (deep soundstage).

I certainly would not describe the 1801s as aggressive but they aren't non-forward either.  They're like studio monitors: "unforgiving" if you're putting the negative spin on it; very accurate if you're putting the positive spin on it.  Toeing them away from the side walls does reduce HF reflections and makes closer listening better.  And of course the drivers are closely spaced and crossed over well.

[David Ellis]

What makes a good speaker for nearfield listening?  Coherence (drivers must be physically close and should have very similar voicing around the crossover frequency with no phase inverting between drivers) and a non-forward/hot/aggressive presentation (deep soundstage).

I have a few thoughts on the matter and will try to convey them without referencing any specific product.

I find that sins of omission are more forgiveable than sins of admission.  This is manifested in many ways.  First, small valleys in the response are okay, but peaks are painful.  Second, tweeters with poor dampening generally have a harsh overshoot that creates noise and, hence, poor imaging.  Third, cheap capacitors purvey a pseudo detail that is also grit & grain that helps the ear localize the tweeter.  Fourth, given the same $$, tube amps generally seem to have less edge and image better than SS amps.  Fifth, a caveat, not all tube amps sound lush/smooth.  Not all SS amps sound harsh/gritty. 

What do you mean by phase inverting?  Are you referring to loudspeakers that use reverse polarity to obtain the correct phase relationship?  Or are you referring to speakers that are sold with a phase cancellation at the crossover point?

Dave

[stvnharr]

There is an excellent article in TAS No. 127, from several years ago, on room treatment and speaker placement, citing 8 easy ways to improve sound.  It's an excellent article and well worth reading if you have access to this issue of TAS and the article by Robert E. Greene.
Of the 8 ways, one is to listen close to your speakers sometimes, as an experiment.  You get mostly just direct sound from the speakers, and no room reflections.
I'll summarize some of the other 7 points:
1. Cover the floor with thick carpet - eliminate floor reflections
2. Cover windows with curtains
3. Break up reflections off parallel walls, if you have echoing.
4. Don't over damp the room
The above seem to be in the obvious category of room treatment, but since many of us don't have that dedicated listening room, compromises have to be made.  It's usually quite helpful to eliminate as many reflections as possible for optimum listening and enjoyment.  Just moving the listening chair up close for a nearfield listen can help a lot.

[richidoo]

Here is that article from avguide.com, the online respository of reviews and articles for The Absolute Sound and The Perfect Vision magazines.

http://www.avguide.com/file-download?review=800

Nice article, Thanks Steven!
Rich

[stvnharr]

Here is that article from avguide.com, the online respository of reviews and articles for The Absolute Sound and The Perfect Vision magazines.

http://www.avguide.com/file-download?review=800

Nice article, Thanks Steven!
Rich

At this year's RMAF a local Denver dealer, Soundings had 2 rooms with speakers set up according to a method called M.A.S.T.E.R. SET, which was developed by the speaker guys at Sumiko Importers.  The long and short of this method is to have the speakers along the long wall in a room, close to the back wall - 8 to 14", and toed in.  The overall object is to have the speakers tuned to each other acting as a left and right sound source equally pressurizong each half of the room.  When fully tuned in, and these rooms were at about 90-95% according to the room hosts, the sound was simply amazing.  It didn't matter where in the room you sat, the sound was the same as there was no sweet spot.  It was as if someone in the room was playing a guitar and you just sat in and listened.
I'm giving short shrift here, you simply had to have visited the room and listened for a spell.
 
However, as always, it may not be possible to set up a room in this manner.  It's always a lot of work to balance all the compromises in room set up to get the best sound possible.  But between information in the article and the above, it's possible to get something decent.

[Zero]

wow - the above is nearly *exactly* how I have my room configured.   

[stvnharr]

wow - the above is nearly *exactly* how I have my room configured.   

Yes, you are fairly close.

The 8-14" area is from the back, middle back I suppose, of the speaker cabinet to the rear wall.  This is the area where bass nodes are present and also couples the speaker to the wall for bass reinforcement.  Out further and there is a noticeable change.
From your gallery photo, you have a big stack of gear in between the speakers, and it's best if that can be either elsewhere, or lowered if possible as it can affect imaging.

One thing I didn't mention is that toe in is determined as follows:
Speakers as far apart as practical, but not too close, 2-3', to a side wall, and still maintain a centered mono image.
Toe in is to the point of the equilateral triangle from the speakers to setup listening position, with toe in to a point behind the listener, so that the inner side of the speaker is still just visible.
Listener must be out from rear wall a couple feet, to avoid rear wall reflection which is very noticeable.
You don't really need a tape measure, you can just estimate distances to fit the room as above and be okay.

It's the fine tuning of the M.A.S.T.E.R. SET setup that is tricky as it's all done by ear and knowledge of what to listen for.  Hopefully Rod @Soundings will come up with a dvd to illustrate the setup procedure as he has learned it from the Sumiko seminars.  When properly done, this method works with any speaker in any room and with little or no room treatment.
 

[95bcwh]

Strange enough...I'm glad that I'm not the only one. My previous room is about 10x15, conventional wisdom said  I should place the speaker along the short wall so I can sit farther from the speakers. I tried that and didn't like the sound - too much room interaction which pollute the sound, and the speakers are too close together so the soundtage was rather congested.

So I turned 90 degee and place the speakers along the long wall, about 8ft apart, and I sat only 6ft away. This near-field listening is truely an eye-opening experience. I'm hearing nothing but the purest signals from my speakers. There's nothing between me and the singer (vocal), as if she is just inches away, if I close my eye I felt like I can just extend my hand and touch her. When I first started it, I still had that little "inner guilt" that I was being stupid to defy conventional wisdom. But over-time I have grown to trust my ears, and I have come to learn that there are people out there who did the same and enjoy it.

See my previous room layout below:

[Wind Chaser]

So I turned 90 degee and place the speakers along the long wall, about 8ft apart, and I sat only 6ft away. This near-field listening is truely an eye-opening experience.

It would be nice if that room was another foot or two deeper, but that's the way to do it.   I've been preaching that for years.  Electronics upstream, especially amplifiers make a big difference in terms of how close the sound is.  Most people if not all when they go to a live performance want the best seats possible.  If sitting in the back row at a concert doesn't cut it, why set up your system as such?

[sunshinedawg]

My speakers are at about 5 1/2 feet for most of my listening, but they have to be for my work which involves critical listening 1/2 the time.

Call me weird, but I really like to hear what is on the recording, and the less of your room you hear the more of the recording space (if there is one) you hear.

I really like the sound of good speakers outdoors, even though there is no room "help".

This is sound thinking, the closer you sit to your speakers, the less interaction from your room. I sit four feet from mine, with the speakers pulled at least 6' off the wall. In my 24ft' room that puts me and my speakers as far away from the walls as possible. Taking your speakers outside is also a very good idea, lets you totally eliminate the room.

[Russell Dawkins]

Nothing like taking a good pair of speakers outside to fully realize just how much your room is influencing the sound of your system.

[Wind Chaser]

Assuming the weather is nice, everything (food, drink, sex, etc) is better outside.  When I was 12 I took my stereo outside almost every day after school.  Some neighbors didn't like and others retailiated.  Stereo Wars!  It was more than sheer volume and clean sound, but who played the best tunes.  I could always count on one neighbor to turn it up outside when my parents prevented me from disturbing the peace as they called it.  It also gave everyone exposure to music they didn't have in their collection.

[BrianM]

I take it the effect is ruined if your room is open on one side, i.e. having the speakers against the long wall would result in open space to the right of the right speaker and a wall to the left of the left speaker.

[stvnharr]

I take it the effect is ruined if your room is open on one side, i.e. having the speakers against the long wall would result in open space to the right of the right speaker and a wall to the left of the left speaker.

Brian,
The open wall should be of no consequence as the other speaker should be far enough from the side wall for it to have little to no effect.  In the setup method I tried to describe, it's all done by ear, no tape measure really necessary.

[Wind Chaser]

I take it the effect is ruined if your room is open on one side, i.e. having the speakers against the long wall would result in open space to the right of the right speaker and a wall to the left of the left speaker.

I have my own suspicions based on experience, but I think it's worth the effort it takes trying.  Go for it and tell us what you think compared to your existing arrangement.

[BrianM]

So there are obviously various opinions floating around on the best arrangement.  Here are my results...

Room: 13 x 16, with 2 openings in one of the short walls (the original back wall)

Before arrangement: Speakers on the short wall, 8 feet apart, pointing toward the back wall with the openings, about 2 feet out from front wall and around 2 feet in from the sides, toed in for near field listening, with axes crossing just in front of the listener about 8 feet from the base of the triangle.  This arrangement sounded very very good...

After arrangement:



Wall with openings is now to the right.  Speakers are still around 8 feet apart, now a little less than a foot from the front wall, listener still about 8 feet away, but the axes are now crossing behind the listener, who is a little over a foot from the back wall, which are mostly taken up by large windows.  (Blinds can be pulled.)

This arrangement sounds...better!  See, I had tried this kind of thing with my previous speakers, which were Revel F30s, in a different room of the same width, and it just didn't work.  Maybe I didn't do it right, maybe those speakers were too big.

It's hard to describe the difference between the before and after setups. Kinda like the difference between listening to players on a stage and actually being on the stage with them.  This setup has really taken the room out of the equation.  I had been worried that I'd be sitting too near the back wall (reflections).  Even with minimal absorption behind me this does not appear to be an issue.  I had been worried that I would sacrifice some imaging with my equipment rack in between the speakers (before I could keep it in a closet out of the way behind).  The imaging is in fact even better the new way.  I was worried the proximity to the front wall would mean sacrificing some stage depth.  Nope.  I'm just sitting on the stage and kinda surrounded by sound.  And the bass is, of course, pleasingly reinforced this way.  A subwoofer might theoretically improve things, with difficulty, but it definitely is not necessary.  You don't believe me come over and hear for yourself!    The bass really does fill the room quite well. 

So it sounds...like you might expect it to sound with more air on either side of the speakers.  High frequencies are given more room to breathe, there is more a sense of space (which was not exactly lacking before), and everything just gels.  The bit about "pressurizing both halves of the room equally" must be accurate.  As for the center image...I just don't understand how good speakers do this!!!  I can't hear a centrally placed soloist emanating from the speakers themselves no matter how hard I concentrate.  It just sounds like my rack is producing the sound.  PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE LITTLE BOXES ON EITHER SIDE OF THE STEREO RACK.  Spoooky.

In short, this is the arrangement I will be sticking with.  I recommend anyone try it who hasn't and can.  (It also makes things look nicer having everything out in the room...I also can't believe I recently contemplated, in a moment of weakness, trying out a different speaker, "for fun."  Well, also because a floorstander would be more child proof...But when you get your room basically out of the way, these 1801s are keepers.  The system just sounds complete as is, thank you Dave Ellis.)

And thanks again for all the input people!

[Wind Chaser]

Wall with openings is now to the right.  Speakers are still around 8 feet apart, now a little less than a foot from the front wall, listener still about 8 feet away, but the axes are now crossing behind the listener, who is a little over a foot from the back wall, which are mostly taken up by large windows.  (Blinds can be pulled.)

This arrangement sounds...better!  See, I had tried this kind of thing with my previous speakers, which were Revel F30s, in a different room of the same width, and it just didn't work.  Maybe I didn't do it right, maybe those speakers were too big.

Brian,

That's great, but don't stop there.  Try pulling them out @ 6" increments further into the room, even if it's not practical, try it anyhow.  Those speakers seem easy enough to move quickly in and out of position.  Also experiment with more tow so the axis cross in front of you.  Try less tow and listen carefully to the difference.  Think of your speakers as fine quality lens that allows for precise focus.  Patient experimentation pays off.  And as you suggested, doing these kind of things can be quite a revelation - to the point where you say, upgrade?  Why upgrade?