Lp to PC FYI Etc.

Charles Calkins · « **on:** 8 Dec 2007, 06:41 pm »

I have a Stanton T.90 USB table with the Stanton 500 series cartridge.
I have a Garrard DD 75 table with a Grado prestige red cartridge.

Doing an A versus B comparison using an ART phono pre in my main audio system the Stanton sounds the best.

The Stanton has a USB output so I can hook it up to my PC without using a pre and transfer LP's to my PC.
I did and the results were very, very disappointing. The LP's I did all sound very shrill and somewhat distorted.

Hooking up the Garrard to the PC I have to use the ART pre and go into the sound card.
The results are very good. The Lp's downloaded to the PC sound more like the real thing.
Didn't hook up the Stanton this way but I'm sure it would sound better than the Garrard.

So I guess IMHO a decent phono pre is a necessity irregardless if spinning vinyl by a table in the main audio system or downloading LP's to a PC.

Anybody else try these setups?

Cheers
Charlie

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #1 on:** 8 Dec 2007, 06:56 pm »

Charlie,

I've not tried it, but a phono pre is important. How much one needs to spend is very much open to debate, of course (as is life itself

) I've heard the ART is a super value. If you want just a bit more out of vinyl...buy another ART preamp and run each leg of your phono IC to one of the units. You'll have dual mono this way....an important part of milking the best from vinyl.

Vinyl is significant worse off than digital technologies in stereo separation....dual mono helps preserve all it can offer with less crosstalk between channels. Separating the power supplies and signal paths is always a good thing...but really has paid off with vinyl re-production I have found

For $50 and an extra electrical outlet, it's a worthwhile gamble

Let us know how that sounds if you go that route.

Regards, John

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #2 on:** 8 Dec 2007, 07:04 pm »

I get the picture about two ART pre's. I'll probably give it a go.
Correct me if I'm wrong but as I see it I can't use two pre's hooking my table to my PC.

Cheers
Charlie

Wayner · « **Reply #3 on:** 8 Dec 2007, 09:31 pm »

After my discovery last weekend, I have to ask this question to you Charles. Do you have your VTA set correctly? I have found a way to adjust VTA perfectly, using a mirror, and the bass has come back to my Paradigm 40v.3's big time as well as soundstage, no schrillness, it's amazing. If you have on of those frameless mirrors (like the ones you see people snorting cocaine on in the movies), put that on top of a medium thickness record under a straight section of the tone arm. Place the stylus on the record and make sure the tone arm is visable in the mirror. Viewing the mirror and the tone arm together will actually double the angular error, making the process real easy. just move your head around until there is a slight crack between the image in the mirror and the actual tone arm. Adjust VTA repeatedly until the gap is even through the length of the reflection. That may cure that schrilly sound completely.

Wayner

Wayner · « **Reply #4 on:** 8 Dec 2007, 09:54 pm »

Here, I decided to take a picture, it is worth a 1000 words and this is way too cool and effective to keep to myself.

It looks like I could fiddle even a little more to get it perfect but I'm probably off by .1 degrees!

Wayner

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #5 on:** 8 Dec 2007, 11:26 pm »

Wayner:
I have no complaints with vinyl playback on my main audio system. I'm complaining about the Lp to Pc when I use the Stanton USB connection. I'm very sure your suggestion is very worthwhile but it's not going to help the Stanton USB to Pc.

Cheers
Charlie

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Dec 2007, 02:40 am »

Quote from: Charles Calkins on 8 Dec 2007, 07:04 pm

I get the picture about two ART pre's. I'll probably give it a go.
Correct me if I'm wrong but as I see it I can't use two pre's hooking my table to my PC.

Cheers
Charlie

Charlie,

A preamp is a preamp...whether you use one or two. Your simply using each preamp for an individual side of your stereo system. Left and Right...completely independent of one another so that there are no power sags when one side needs juice - thus starving the other.

With two completely separate power supplies (using the two pre's), you are maximizing what is likely a fairly small power supply used in a $50 phono preamp. As well, there is zero crosstalk as the signal is routed thru totally separate transmission lines until it reaches your amp or, indeed in this case, your PC.

In your stereo system, optimally, you'd used a dual mono amp or two (mono) amps for fully independent mono sides from cartridge thru and past your independent left and right speakers.

This does help vinyl to preserve it very poor inherent stereo separation...one of the great virtues of digital technologies. It helps skinny the difference, if you will, between vinyl and digital technologies.

I don't know why more isn't mentioned of this in vinyl-related conversations

- it's a pretty nice step-up in sound for vinyl when you go this route. It's not nearly as beneficial with CD because of the much, much higher levels of stereo separation to begin with. To listen to vinyl with anything else now but dual mono throughout is in all likelihood a step back in sound quality..........nearly no matter the component costs involved that aren't dual mono.

For $50 - try it - and let us know your thoughts on any improvements. I think the ART DJ Pre is the perfect animal to try it on as the stock stereo unit is reported to be excellent value....two must be better than one, however, as certain shortcuts have been made in the power supply to reach a very cheap price point

Regards, John

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Dec 2007, 03:33 am »

John:

Have you tried this or something similar?

Cheers
Charlie

Wayner · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Dec 2007, 01:30 pm »

A turntable is for all practical purposes, a mechanical device. I think it's funny when many vinylphiles hear something bad, they think it has to be the electonics. The fact is, that would be the last place I would suspect.

Wayner

Wayner · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 Dec 2007, 01:41 pm »

John,

Your sugestion of dual mono points me to the fact that most cartridges are only capable of 20db of seperation to begin with. I personally think this is one of the reasons vinyl is superior to digital because it doesn't have that much seperation. After all, our ears aren't 10 feet apart.

I've run my tables through my AVA pre-amps for years and don't think I can do much better and they are not dual mono. I've heard LPs playing with just one channel audiable, thinking there was a problem, only to find out that was the way it was recorded. Maybe Charlie's problem is electronic, but there is a list of things to check before buying more stuff, IMHO. And mabe the lesson here is that turntables with USB ports aren't very good.

Wayner

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Dec 2007, 03:23 pm »

Wayner:

I agree with you. Turntables with USB ports aren't good enough using the USB port to PC for downloading LP's to PC's. I'm almost positive I've made all the right connections. Might be something I'm missing but I doubt it.
But my Stanton hooked up the good old way sounds very good. I've no complaints with that setup.

Cheers
Charlie

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Dec 2007, 04:27 pm »

Quote from: Charles Calkins on 9 Dec 2007, 03:33 am

John:

Have you tried this or something similar?

Cheers
Charlie

The three very best phono amplifiers I've ever heard in my system were the current Mitsubishi DA-C20 (dual mono), Musical Surroundings Phenomena and the old Superphon Revelation Dual Mono.

Including receivers, there have been 6 others that haven't measured up in 30 years.....none of them dual mono. Seems pretty good circumstantial evidence to me that dual mono has value in vinyl playback.

For $50......you outta' try. Given that the ART has to have a lot of shortcuts to reach that cheap price point, and that the power supply is most often the most expensive part of any amplification design, it stands to reason that another unit (with another power supply) can only do greater justice in the end. The separate and distinct signal traces will only potentially improve crosstalk for greater benefit sonically.

Wayner - are you saying that in vinyl playback our goal should be....monophonic reproduction

Your wasting mucho $$$ on stereo channels and two speakers then when you play your vinyl.

Greater channel separation will create a larger soundstage before you....mimicking a real live performance all the more. Analog is tepid in this regard next to digital technologies....the last thing you want to do for phono is to try to make it worse. Nahhh, that's not progress

I've heard Frank van Alstine (I think his life's work is a testimony to good sense and rationality, by the way, I am a fan...albeit a passive one) rationale and arguments for not producing equipment that is dual mono....multiple voltage regulators is not the equal of a separate transformer for each channel.

Using one common trace pcb for the entire transmission line will create leakage and channel crosstalk...and there is no way around that except to create separate and distinct channel paths. Vinyl is already plagued by mediocre stereo separation...to get the most out of it is yet another goal of enjoying vinyl to it's utmost.

The very microphone or microphone itself used in the recording has much higher stereo separation than the playback side. The goal should be to approximate that greater stereo separation inasmuch as possible in your playback system.

You can be careless with CD playback as to dual mono architecture as it starts out so superior from the start, but with vinyl, lacking in it from the start, preserving it is a very real goal. CD is great cause it's plug in and play...vinyl requires near endless tinkering. Dual mono is part of that tinkering process to getting the best from it.

As such, more extreme elliptical shaped styli will create greater channel separation at the start....as will keeping dual mono amplification throughout the sonic chain until it reaches your two, not one, ears

John

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Dec 2007, 04:34 pm »

Charlie,

Your Stanton is quartz lock, direct drive.....your old Garrard is AC synchronous. One thing we are all learning as we go along is speed regulation is essential to quality playback (however this is achieved). Your Garrard, due to several factors, is likely considerably off speed from the better Stanton in that regard....that alone might be the reason your Stanton sounds better.

I'm learning this lesson right now living with an synchronous AC-motor on my VPI table...I have not yet heard a single album that I've enjoyed more on it then my cheaper JVC direct drive table.

I keep tryin' tho....

John

Wayner · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Dec 2007, 05:20 pm »

No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that the specifications of most cartridges are narrow. Their channel separation is no where near a CD's capabilities. I don't think that extreme channel separation is the dial-in for great vinyl playback or CD playback either.

I have fantastic stereo from my vinyl set-ups and I certainly don't want to listen to mono. Here are some specs from the Grado Gold: channel separation-25db, Audio Technica AT440MLa: separation-27db. Here is red book CD separation-100db. The numbers make vinyl playback look like foolery, but you and I both know vinyl playback can be superior to CDs in many ways. I will agree with you that preserving what little separation there is is important, but it is not the ultra spec for superior vinyl playback.

I always have to go back to the mechanical set up to find most of my playbacks misgivings.

Wayner

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #14 on:** 9 Dec 2007, 05:44 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 9 Dec 2007, 05:20 pm

I will agree with you that preserving what little separation there is is important, but it is not the ultra spec for superior vinyl playback.

Heck yeah. There is no pre-eminent or dominant spec, or even setup, that works in all ways - for sure.

Basically, for Charlie, for $50.00 more for a second preamp to try dual mono it's well worth the try. Particualrly as there are significant shortcuts made to the ART's most expensive innards - the power supply. Two mediocre power supplies might actually equal a good one. For $50, it's well worth the try.

For me (and ME only), I don't intend to try another phono preamp unless it's dual mono. It's at least one positive step in the right direction I've found......the rest I'm figuring out with all the rest of ya', be assured

John

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 Dec 2007, 11:31 pm »

Well guys this is very interesting.

I have been somewhat disappointed in the results I'm getting from LP to PC and even analog vinyl play in my main audio system. I've tried several phono preamps and things just don't sound right to my ears. Doesn't make any difference if I use the Stanton or the Garrard turntable.

As you know the Stanton has USB out and also a S/Pdif out. Last night I got to wondering how the Stanton would sound if it were hooked up to my DAC by the S/Pdif out.

I got it up and running now and the darn thing sounds GREAT!!! No phono pre in the circuit. Strictly turntable to DAC to preamp. I'm impressed with what I'm hearing!! VERY!!!

Now I'm thinking that I'll look around for a DAC with a USB out so I can go to my PC and try that setup when I transfer LP's to PC. Maybe S/Pdif into the DAC also.

That's the latest for now. Stay tuned!!

Cheers
Charlie

Wayner · « **Reply #16 on:** 14 Dec 2007, 12:06 am »

Good deal Charlie!

PS Audio has a DAC with S/PDIF inputs and USB outputs. So does the Benchmark DAC1. It does seam to be the trend that if you make a DAC, you better have a USB B port output.

What software are you using to do the editing? I use Cakewalk Pro Audio 9.

Wayner

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #17 on:** 14 Dec 2007, 12:16 am »

Wayner:

Thanks for the info on the DAC's. I'm using Acoustica's Spin it again software. It's a very easy program to use and I like that. I'm a computer dumdum so easy is the best for me.

Cheers
Charlie

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 Dec 2007, 10:43 pm »

I wonder if audio circuity has changed in the past say 25 years.

The way I've got the Stanton turntable setup now reminds me the way vinyl sounded in the late 1970's

Sometimes on a Sunday afternoon in the late 1970's I'd buzz down to Berkeley's Telegraph ave. and browse through the record stores. Always hit the used section looking for cheap LP's. I'd pick up a few and when I got home my wife and I would sit down and listen to them. Have a Martini or two and just enjoy the music. At that time I had a receiver or two. Can't remember their names or model numbers. But vinyl play was very good. Nothing to bitch about.

Got my first Adcom separates in the 80's. No phono stage. CD's were getting popular about that time and I didn't bother with a seperate phono stage. So recently my interest in vinyl has come back. But up until
now I have not been happy with what I've heard. With this setup I'm now using reminds me of the way vinyl sounded.

So that's why I'm wondering if the audio circuity has changed somewhat to cater to the CD world and forget about the vinyl guys. Just my thoughts. Probably wrong but who knows there might be some truth in what I'm saying.

Cheers
Charlie

Wayner · « **Reply #19 on:** 14 Dec 2007, 10:53 pm »

The way my VPI sounds now I can't believe it. I don't want to listen to CDs. Charlie, go buy yourself a new album from someone you like made in the 1980's. You will be amazed how records from the 80's sound so much better than most from the 70's. There is one well known exception: The Moody Blues, Days of Future, Passed. This album has been re-issued and will make your vinyl system sound fantastic. Most of my purchases now are with 80's rock, and some classical.

Wayner