Need some help with AKSA and Orion...pretty please

whubbard · « **on:** 6 Dec 2007, 07:37 am »

Hello All,

I'm new around here but I'm about to undertake my biggest DIY project and I wan't to make sure I do it right, the first time.
I will be building a pair of Orion+ Speakers (the ones with the extra tweeters). Now I currently have 2 15" Dayton RS HF Subs that I'm buidling and that I intend to use...Now everything between the speakers and the sources is up in the air. I would like to put together a GK-1M (I don't care that its manual...I don't really want to pay for the swift, and I want to build it). Now for powering the Orions I was thinking I would use a 100W (Nirvana) for the bass, 55W (Nirvana) for the mids, and 100W (Nirvana) for the highs (remember I'm Building the Orion+). Now what I'm worried about is how will I connect my 2 subs... Does the GK-1M have a sub output? I would also like to be able to flatten the response and was thinking about using a Behringer DCX2496 however with the balanced inputs it will make things to complicated. I think I will use a Behringer DSP1124 just the subs with and ART CleanBox.

Also, with the GK-1M...I already have a NAD-PP2 for my rega P2...I don't need the Phono option...do I?

What do you all think of this setup? If you have ANY suggestions...and I mean ANY...please let me know!

p.s. TonyM if you read this message I just want to let you know I will be stealing your component rack design (I saw it it the photos). Its brilliant how you can change the rack height...just brilliant.

AKSA · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 08:06 am »

Hi West,

Thanks for your post and welcome to the forum!

First up, you can save on the tweeters, since they handle a lot less power than the bass and mids, you can use a lower power 55W AKSA, around 40W, which will give you the capacity to drive less than a 4R load with safety. That would mean only 100W AKSAs on the bass.

The GK1-M does indeed have a sub output, at the volume control, which takes the signal just before it enters the tube, thus preserving the tight, puncy bass of SS.

If you have a Rega preamp you won't need the phono option, quite true.

The AKSA is designed for single ended input. You can't do balanced, although if you buy six Jensen trafos you certainly can, but it will cost some bass, not improve the noise issue any, and cost a LOT of dollars.

The Behringer is designed for proaudio and used in mix downs for recording. This is why it's balanced, to minimise the noise of long cables in the recording studio. This is almost never a problem in the domestic high end situation.

The Orion is a big, complex project. Take a deep breath. Aurelius and PSP, both on this forum, have Orions, and they might comment on your plans. I've heard Aurelius' Orion and it is impressive, very impressive.

Other folk like to comment on West's plans here??

Hugh

whubbard · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 08:42 am »

Hi,
Thanks for the response.

So you think the 55W (Nirvana) will have no problem driving all 4 tweeters?

For those with Orions I've noticed the XO only does high/low, has anybody experimented with high/mid/low? or do you just use an RCA splitter to go from the high to both your mid amp and high amp?

Will using silver solder in the XO and in the AKSA help? Becuase I can get 1/2 lb of dayton 4% for pretty cheap.

Also, I'm asuming that I'll go from the GK-1M to the Orion XO to the Amps, then to the Orions, right?

One last thing, what do you think of cat5 speaker cable with your amps? Any problems?

Again, ALL comments are welcome, good or bad.

Thanks Again

Jens · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 08:46 am »

I'm using a DCX2496 connected to the sub out of my GK-1R. This setup controls x-over, low end equalising and room equalising for my bass system up to 250 Hz and works a treat.

You just need shielded RCA => XLR and XLR => RCA cables going to and from the Behringer, then you're home free

whubbard · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 08:55 am »

Do you think the DCX2496 is better even though it is not a PEQ like the DSP1124? (also the DSP1124 is $120 cheaper)

...Please look at my last post for all my other questions! Thanks!

Jens · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 09:04 am »

Sorry, I don't know the 1124, so I couldn't say which is better. Really depends on what you want to do. The DCX2496 gives you a lot in one package (hence the higher price, I suppose) and is what I need for my system. No other product could give me all those features at the time I got it.

It's great for bass, but I wouldn't use it for mid/treble.

whubbard · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 09:32 am »

hmm...
Looking around I'm really liking the DEQ2496 as all I really care about is that it flattens the response of my sub.
Right??

Again...Please look at my other posts for all my other questions! Thanks!

stvnharr · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 03:27 pm »

Quote from: whubbard on 6 Dec 2007, 08:42 am

So you think the 55W (Nirvana) will have no problem driving all 4 tweeters?

One last thing, what do you think of cat5 speaker cable with your amps? Any problems?

The 55W amp will be quite sufficient for all the tweeters.
I use some cat5 based speaker cabling with my N+ amp and it works fine.
You may wish to consider LifeForce modules for the W22 driver, rather than the N+.

Steve

whubbard · « **Reply #8 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 04:05 pm »

Considering that I am building 3 of these amps, and I would like to keep cost down, I was only going to go with the Nirvana Upgrade, not the Nirvana Plus...Bad Idea?

I also now understand why the 55W will work with the tweeters, I was calculating the power as if the tweeters were in a series, but after reading on the Orion site, they will be in parallel, which will have the 55W giving well enough power!

stvnharr · « **Reply #9 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 05:50 pm »

Quote from: whubbard on 6 Dec 2007, 04:05 pm

Considering that I am building 3 of these amps, and I would like to keep cost down, I was only going to go with the Nirvana Upgrade, not the Nirvana Plus...Bad Idea?

The PLUS idea is worth the little extra for the mids and highs

whubbard · « **Reply #10 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 06:29 pm »

What does the Plus really add?

If I only get one should I get it for the highs?
If two, highs and mids?

Thanks

Jens · « **Reply #11 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 07:07 pm »

You might want to contact Hugh - as far as I know he has had a fair number of both Nirvana and Nirvana Plus modules traded in from people who changed to Lifeforces. Perhaps he could give you a good deal on all those amps modules you need

PSP · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 07:12 pm »

Hi West(?),
I have Orions, a GK-1 pre, and am using a 100N+ on the bass (I used 43v rails vs, the stock 50v, increased the power supply capacitance, and selected power supply diodes for high current--20 amps, if I remember correctly). The mids and tweeters are each driven by a 55w LifeForce. I had a 100N+ on the mids, but the 55w LifeForce was very clearly superior.

I have the second tweeter (the Orion+ mod) still sitting in the box. When I add that second tweeter, I will drop the tweeter amp to 25 volt rails (vs. the standard 36v), since Hugh suggests this mod for the 55w LifeForce amp. If I was using 55N+ on the tweeters, I would not need to reduce the rail voltage because the 55N+ apparently tolerates low impedance loads better than the LF55 does.

I appreciate your position on keeping costs reasonable. I feel the same way. I love audio, but I also love my family, love to go skiing, love to sail, and don't want to face old age in poverty... so, everything in balance, yes?

The keys to "high end audio on a budget" are (1) priorities, (2) sequence, and (3) timing. Priorities are obvious (and probably unique) to each individual if you take the time to sit down and list them. One obvious "priorities" suggestion is that you initially go with basic, cheap speaker wires and DIY interconnects. IME the impact of wire is is secondary or tertiary to the effects of preamp, the amps, the speakers, and positioning in the room. That said, I would definitely use good wire in the construction of my GK-1 and AKSA amps because I don't want to go back and re-build someday with better wire. (I may get some argument on "wire" here).

By "Sequence" I would suggest:
- preamp = GK-1 (after you have listened for a while, you can use a Sonicap Gen I on the GK-1 input and get a very nice improvement for very little money. Later, you can buy fancy caps and do the Platinum mods and get another stunning improvement).

- amps = 100N+ on the bass, modded for high current, since it will be driving two woofers per channel. I have posted on this amp and I would be happy to discuss pros, cons, and part numbers. On the mids and tweeters, I would go with 55N+ and save your pennies until you can upgrade both of those amps (maybe one at a time) to LifeForce. As you go from stock AKSA 55 --> 55N --> 55N+ you hear more detail and more high end extension and this without any added harshness or listener fatigue. There is also noticeable improvement in the bass. For every upgrade, the effect has been immediately obvious to my 61 year old ears in the first 30 seconds, and I have always (always!!!) felt that the sonic improvement was well worth the money. When I first listened to the 55w LifeForce, the improvement over the N+ was absolutely stunning (but the price is also a lot higher). To put these remarks in context, please be aware that many here have sold very expensive and well-regarded amps after hearing the AKSA amps (stock, N, and N+).

- I would suggest that you go with the stock Orion (one tweeter per side) and listen to that for a year or two. The Orion is (IMO) an amazing speaker with just one tweeter and I would tell my best friend to listen to and get extremely well acquainted with the stock Orion for several months before adding the second tweeter. It's taken me almost 9 months of listening 4-5 nights/week to get the speakers positioned and the woofer and tweeter levels set correctly (note that the Orion uses a three-way XO, but only T and W levels are adjustable). If you delay the second tweeter, you will also save some money that you can use for the N+ or LF upgrades.

Finally, by "timing" I mean that a realistic path to world-class music in your room may take 5 - 10 years if you spend a little money now and again on the most pressing opportunities for improvement. If you want to get it done in 2 years, you better have a lot of cash on hand.

I will be happy to discuss details with you at any time.

BTW, if you ever travel to Minneapolis, MN, USA, you are most welcome to stop by for a listen.

Good luck,
Peter

PSP · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 07:28 pm »

I forgot to comment on integrating your subs.

I suggest you listen to your Orions for a while and then decide whether you want to worry about more bass. Many folks are extremely happy with Orion bass "as is".

If you want more bass, SL has described how to integrate a subwoofer with the Orions; he also sells a circuit board for this purpose. Personally, for music I use the Orions without a sub. For movies I use a 50Hz XO at the HT receiver to send the explosions and crashes to my VMPS New Original Sub while the stuff above 50Hz goes to the Orions. Since I am only partially serious about movie soundtracks, this is good enough for me.

Peter

whubbard · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 08:31 pm »

Well here is there thing, I would rather wait, and deal with my current setup than have to deal with upgrades.

So your saying that If I really want the best performace with reasonable cost:

Orion+
GK-1M (with upgrades)...Even if the swift is better, its not worth the cost to me.
Lifeforce 55 for highs (with 25v rail)
Lifeforce 55 for Mids
100W N+ for Bass

Do you recommend his XO for the bass compared to using the sub output on the GK-1M? Also after going trough the XO I could still send it to a DSP1124 or DEQ2496 to flatten out the lower end, right?

If you have a good solid parts list which you have used, would you mind emailing it to me: west.hubbard -at- gmail dot com

Thank so much for your detailed post.

MikeC · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 09:38 pm »

Hi West

Great choice of amps and speakers.

I also run AKSA's into Orions, see my amp set-up here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=48170.msg431661#msg431661. I think it is very similar tp Peter's.

Based on my experience (before the Orions), go straight for Nirvana Plus at least. The N+ adds a sense of realism and increased detail over the plain Nirvana. One reason for me not moving to the LF yet is not wanting to take my system down for an extended period, so I understand why you may be reluctant to do multiple upgrades later.

To add to Peters comment: there is only adjustment of the bass and tweeter output of the Orion ASP. However, these are each adjustable ± 2.5dB relative to the midrange, so there is no issue.

Also, use the ASP for the bass output. SL integrates all the drivers through a series of block functions in the ASP, and this correct driver integration will be lost if using a separate X-over. I think Peter is wanting to implement a second set of ASP boards to use the GK-1 sub out for the bass, but unless you are willing to go this route, use the sub out and sub X-over only for the sub-woofer. I second Peters comments about the sub - if you are aware of the sub playing, the level is too high and you will be obscuring just how good the Orion is in the bass. I have had a comment from one visitor that my system significantly outperformed a Krell system driving Wilson Watt-Puppy 8's, especially in the bass.

This Christmas, i will be increasing the input impedance of the Orion ASP to make it a slightly easier load for the GK-1. I will post comments if I consider this to be an upgrade. Before anyone else jumps in here, this is in no way implying that I consider the GK-1 anything less than capable here, just that valves normally prefer to work into higher impedance loads.

Regards

Mike

whubbard · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Dec 2007, 12:38 am »

Sounds Good. THANKS!

So I'll use that SL calls the Thor-Orion Crossover.

I'm going to go with:
Orion+ (revision .1)
Thor-Orion Crossover
100W Nirvana+ For the Low
55W LifeForce for the mid
55W LifeForce for the high.

Sound Good?

Also, I'm a bit confused...it apears that the Thor-Orion Crossover has 1 Output for the Subs, 1 Output for the Lows, 1 Output for the Highs...but what about the mids...is there a set of output terminals that are just hidden in all the photos of them?

PSP · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Dec 2007, 06:28 pm »

Hi West,
Yes indeedy, that setup will sound very good!!

For detailed Orion questions, I'd suggest the Orion Users Group board http://orion.quicksytes.com/index.php since many of those folks will have worked on the same problems (e.g., doing a good job of integrating your sub with the Orions) that you are wondering about.

The Orion-Sub XO is handled by the W-ASP board http://www.linkwitzlab.com/thor-orion.htm, AKA the Thor-Orion Crossover. You will also need the Orion XO/EQ which is represented by a large white box in the first block diagram in the above Thor-Orion link.

The Orion XO/EQ (called the "ASP" = Analog Signal Processor) is described at http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_asp.htm and is used for the Orion whether or not you have additional subs. As you can see from the block diagram (and mentioned above by Mike), the Orion ASP has outputs for the Tweeter, Mid, and Woofer amps.

In the interests of being totally truthful, I have never directly compared the ATI amp (reccommended by SL) with my Aspen AKSA and Life Force amps. I have used AKSA and Life Force amps (for maybe 6-7 years now) through three generations of speakers (including the Orion) and have found that--as I improved my speakers--the Aspen amps were definitely not the limiting factor in my system. Other folks here have direct experience with comparing the various Aspen amps with some extremely pricey gear and have chosen Aspen without looking back. So, I would be dumbstruck if the ATI outperformed the N+ and Life Force amps on any speaker--Orion included--but I have not done those listening comparisons myself.

Peter

whubbard · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Dec 2007, 06:36 pm »

Thanks.
Yeah i'm pretty excited about my setup...it took a while but I'm going to go all lifeforce! (i wan't it done right the first time).

What do you all recommend for good quality Binding Posts and Female RCA Connectors?

Also,
How many Female RCAs do I need on the GK-1M?

PSP · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Dec 2007, 09:03 pm »

Hi West,
If you truly mean all Life Force, then we need Hugh's blessing that the Life Force 100 can swing 2.5R (for two woofers in parallel per channel). Otherwise, you would need two LifeForce amps (four channels) in the bass (but they could be two Life Force 55s since each amp module would be driving only one woofer) or you could use one 100N+ (low voltage rails, etc.) as discussed above.

Peter