[bhobba]

I found the following posted on Franks forum:

'i read this following review of the new 90K tenor monoblocks:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/tenor/m350.html'

My initial thought was poser value only.  After reading it I found nothing to change my mind.  At that price I would want a blind listening test demonstrating its sonic superiority over other amps - not:  'Apparently Tenor experimented with other visual designs yet François ultimately returned to their classic look.'

How about experimenting with some listening tests? - blind and otherwise.  A Lexus is an expensive car - but it contains actual engineering.  A Roles Royce is even more expensive but has no better engineering - probably worse.  You are simply paying for a name.  I know what I would rather spend my money on.  I first started to get into Hi Fi via an interest in electronics.  I avidly read Electronics Australia.  One article stuck in my mind.  It claimed mid priced Hi Fi gear (and compared to this stuff Hugh's designs are downright cheap) generally sounded better than really expensive stuff.  Why?  They usually spent their money of engineering - not marketing gimmicks. 

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Bill

[LM]

Bill,

Ah, the old law of diminishing returns eh!  Or some might say, negative returns in some cases as I think one could pay a lot more than the cost of a Soraya and not have as good a performance.

In reality, even on the off chance that these monoblocks may be the bees knees, it gives me the shakes to even think about trying them.  My speakers, CD player, cables, pre and vinyl bits and pieces let alone the room, carpet, furnishings would all have to be changed as well to maximise their system potential.  Let alone the fact that I’d have no Super left, I'd need a new wife to boot and some smart lawyer would most likely get her the stereo anyway, so it would all have been to no avail.

Actually, I’m sure a new (Aston Martin/Ferrari/etc. insert favourite here) would outperform my Subaru but I doubt if my reflexes and driving capabilities would be able to extract anything like their true potential if I owned one.  Same, same stereo.  So I’ll stick happily with what I have and remain ignorant of the Tenor’s true capability.

Now Theo on the other hand (sorry mate)……………..

Golly, I really should have something better to do in my lunchtime shouldn't I than waffle on like this.

[AKSA]

Bill,

As Ben, Tinker on this forum, so eloquently puts it, your flabber is thoroughly gasted......

You are right.  People, however, will pay a lot of money for bragging rights.  In the trade these guys are called 'box openers'.  In some societies, particularly the Far East, high end has become the social cachet, so this is understandable.  But you are right, it does not necessarily mean it sounds better, but it will certainly sound distinctive.  Many brands have a house sound, Cary and Acoustic Research for example, and lots of people go for this sound. 

High end, it appears, is subjective, just like food, clothes, cars, women.....

Cheers,

Hugh

[gerado]

Could not resist the cast there Lyn me mate!

Looks great I think, must have one, .....   of them nice carry cases they come in

Been there , nearly done that!

Do not know about you guys but reviews are real hard to work out and about the only way I can judge anything these days is after I've lived with it.
Things that initially impress are more likely to tire me soon after the box has gone.

As to the tenor, it sure has a lot of wood, but it may be for the plug and play types and box openers, a species I'm fast distancing myself from.

Long live the DIYers, tinkerers, and trained ears. Once you are not afraid to look inside the box inside the box you see the shinning light more clearly aa

Theo

[stvnharr]

These amps were at RMAF and I heard them.  Yes of course, they sounded nice.  They are huge, heavy, and take up a lot of floor space.  I don't think anyone who frequents this forum is in any serious consideration for a pair of these.  In fact, most folks will never see a pair of these, certainly no one in Australia.  Tenor doesn't have many dealers, and most dealers can't afford a demo pair of these anyway.  Tenor Audio can price them at whatever level they wish.  No one is required to pay this, it's all optional. 

Ya, a blind test, so what would you choose as your "B" amplifier ? 

High end audio always has had products with very high price tags aimed at a small segment of the market that has that kind of money to spend.  The only part of the market one really needs to be concerned about is what YOU can afford, and the performance that can be attained with the money you can afford to spend.

[Seano]

I know I'm an electronic ignoramus.......but can somebody please point out to me where ninty thousadn Canadian dollars has been hidden in this thing?



I (and I'm sure Hugh) do acknowledge that the parts that make up most audio equipment would be lucky to account for any more 20% (perhaps even less than 10%) of the final purchase price........but I'll be stuffed if there's ten grand worth of audio jewellery in that box!!

[kyrill]

R&D my luv, R&D 

and then finally an extra 85 grand to match the status of the rich, to buy the elusive specialness of "only the best"- the rich has now become the best- can afford those best of the best

.

[Grumpy_Git]

Seano

I would posit that the transformer cover is made of some stupidly expensive mu metal and contains a hideously under-spec'd/sized transformer and the Jules Rimet Trophy along with Lord Lucans mobile number and written accounts of the meaning behind "You're so Vain" and "American Pie" by the respective Artists.

Does that answer your question?

Nick.

PS: I actually agree with Kryll

[bhobba]

R&D my luv, R&D 
and then finally an extra 85 grand to match the status of the rich, to buy the elusive specialness of "only the best"- the rich has now become the best- can afford those best of the best

Exactly.  It costs a lot to investigate if the old style looks better than a new style, and how to fabricate a cool looking curved heatsink.  Then one must add a ridiculously large amount on top of it to ensure it is expensive enough for your target audience - those guys for whom asking the price is irrelevant so the salesman can say if you need to ask the price sir, you can't afford it.  After thinking about it I am not that concerned about the manufacturer hoodwinking people.  After all marketing ploys are used all the time -charging a ridicules price to give it 'poser' value is just one of many.  I now think the reviewer who gushed about how great it is needs to be taken to task. Journalistic standards should be above marketing ploys.  At that price a blind listening test should have been mandatory.

Thanks
Bill
Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Thanks
Bill
Thanks
Bill

Sorry guys - another case of the sttttttutters.

Thanks
Bill

[gerado]

We all know that when ever you buy something you do not just pay for the cost of the parts

Thats probably irrelevant, if the design and execution is cutting edge and the performance matches this. The trick is which is the read deal and which is just a status statement.

At 90G for most of us its irrelevant unless one is fortunate to hear them in your own environment as a yardstick.
It would be interesting if you could just drop them in to our existing system and see the magnitude of difference they make without actually changing anything else. That is no doubt pointless not matching them up with equally high end speakers and other equipment but still would be fun if one could.

[gaetan8888]

Hello

I've seen that Tenor amp at the 2007 Montreal audio show with a  pair of Verity Audio Parsifal speakers.

It have ECC803 and ECC99 tubes input and a transistors output, with a super fast bias control, a real army of electronics protections, a 1.85 kw of power transformer and 10 voltages regulators. Lot of technology, but is it made it sound better... I don't think so... I think that all that complexity are, in part, to impress the public. Sometime there is no choice to use more complex topology but the best engineer can do miracles with moderately simple amps circuits.

The sound are very good... but it's not worth 90K $

I bet that the Soraya would sound better and you don't need to sell your house to buy it.

Bye

Gaetan

[bhobba]

I bet that the Soraya would sound better and you don't need to sell your house to buy it.

So do I.  In fact, I bet all sorts of reasonably priced amps would be so close as to not really matter; eg Franks Omegastar at well under $1000.00.  Beating the Soraya's though - now that would be tough.  I suspect it is possible, and eventually Hugh or someone else will do it, but it will not be easy, and take a lot of investigation into what counts - the sonics of the amp - not investigating if a new cabinet style looks better or not, and getting cool looking curved heatsinks.  Reports I am getting is that the new Spectron beast is pretty good at a cost slightly above the Soraya.  A listening test between the two would be interesting.

Thanks
Bill

[stvnharr]

I bet that the Soraya would sound better and you don't need to sell your house to buy it.

So do I.  In fact, I bet all sorts of reasonably priced amps would be so close as to not really matter; eg Franks Omegastar at well under $1000.00.  Beating the Soraya's though - now that would be tough.  I suspect it is possible, and eventually Hugh or someone else will do it, but it will not be easy, and take a lot of investigation into what counts - the sonics of the amp - not investigating if a new cabinet style looks better or not, and getting cool looking curved heatsinks.  Reports I am getting is that the new Spectron beast is pretty good at a cost slightly above the Soraya.  A listening test between the two would be interesting.

Thanks
Bill

I don't think it's appropriate to bash another manufacturer's product in this forum simply because it costs a whole lot of money, especially one that most posters have not listened to in an audio system playing music. 
Some may not remember, but it was not all that long ago that a poster tried to equate one of Hugh's amp's with a real cheapish old amplifier, based on schematics and an "expert" opinion.  Sparks flew. 
Or do you remember when Shinobiwan thought Hugh was charging an exorbitant amount of money for Life Force modules?  Oh did the sparks fly then.

[netaron]

Dear stvnharr,

Bashing seems a little "hot" wouldn't you say? I think this topic has been an interesting discussion towards ridiculously priced gear without much justification.

I am almost certain it is one hell of an amp for driving difficult loads with authority and without distortion.  Which reminds me, I used to own a Spectral amp. I remember the first time I fired her up, it took the speakers by the you know what and commanded respect. There was absolutely no load problems with any speakers it was presented with. As a matter of fact, it still remains one of my favorite SS amps for difficult loads and with the cover removed, it truly bared resemblance to jewelry. Anyway, getting off topic, but personally I found this thread  fun to read.

No hard feelings.

Haron 

[rabbitz]

The market will determine the selling price of any product.

As long as the buyer perceives it as good value and is happy with the purchase, that's all that matters and it's nobody else's business.

[stvnharr]

Dear stvnharr,

Bashing seems a little "hot" wouldn't you say? I think this topic has been an interesting discussion towards ridiculously priced gear without much justification.

There is a lot of very high priced audio gear made by some manufacturers.  This gear can be discussed in general forums, like Audio Central or the Audio Asylum  forums.  I just don't think it's appropriate in a manufacturer forum like this one.  Most comments were by people who never heard the amp in question, and thus have no direct knowledge. 
Tenor Audio can charge whatever they want for their products.  It has nothing to do with Aspen products.  I don't think anyone is really debating whether to get Tenor monoblocs or a Soraya.
Nothing wrong with a discussion of very high priced gear, just do it in an appropriate forum.

[AKSA]

Let me say that I don't mind who says what here as long as it's non-confrontational and doesn't make negative comments about other people's gear.  My gear can be criticised here;  to some extent that is what the forum is for and nothing is perfect.   

I really don't like it when people get personal, to me, that's the only hard and fast nono.

That said, I've gotten pretty personal myself on DIYaudio when someone has taken a well placed pot shot at me......!!   

I have not heard this Tenor Monobloc but I admit I would love to!!     I would be terribly happy if my Soraya even came close, I really would.....

Cheers,

Hugh

[bhobba]

I have not heard this Tenor Monobloc but I admit I would love to!!     I would be terribly happy if my Soraya even came close, I really would.....

Certainly.  At that price it goes without saying that it would be good - like the performance of a Rolls Royce.  Although most have not had the pleasure of actually driving a Rolls, most would concede that many cheaper cars would perform better.  But that is not the idea of a Rolls - its prestige is.  The same with this amp.  The reason it has sparked such discussion is guys on this forum are not the real market of this amp, just as guys on a high performance car forum are not the real market for a Rolls.  Because of this an actual comparison with products more attuned to the typical audiophile on a rational budget would be of great interest - to confirm what I, and I think many others, suspect i.e. like the Rolls it performance is 'adequate madam', and by any objective standard that 'adequate' equates to excellent;  but many amps will be nearly as good, or dare I say it, even better, just like a Ferrari would likely outperform a Rolls.

I have also been following the thread that sparked my initial posting.  The original poster was most concerned the discussion veered away from a discussion of its technical merits and circuit topology.  The technical merits of a valve input stage, Fet output stage, oversized power supplies, and regulation everywhere, are well known and old hat.  The intriguing aspect of the amp is its over the top cost and how it can be justified - which is exactly what the discussion focused on.

After thinking about it my concern is not with the price itself, that I now believe is a marketing ploy, but with the gushing review that tries to give the impression that price buys you a better performing amp.  I suspect such a conclusion would not stand up to scrutiny - but like the performance of a Rolls it is doubtfull too many of us will ever be able to find out.

Thanks
Bill

[AKSA]

Bill,

I agree emphatically.  But let me pursue the car analogy because it is safe and I know something about it.......   I will confine comments to the heart of the automobile, the engine, rather than the exquisite coach building for which RR is also famous.

The Roller, until quite recently, used the 6.75 litre Olds V8 design which was originally penned in the sixties.  This was an upmarket design from the bigblock Chev era, and a very good engine with stump pulling torque and effortless, smooth performance.  With RR at the helm, fussing over metallurgy and machining quality, it became an engine of legendary durability, and when Bentley took to it brandishing a meaty turbo it quickly lifted up its skirts and performed with the best of them for another twenty years.

Some years ago BMW, the new owners for a time, put one of their 6 litre V12s into it.  The Sheikhs were not amused;  the stump pulling torque, so thrilling on the desert tarmac, had gone, replaced by a fussy, shrill, ultra smooth delivery which lacked the elegant US/Brit macho they were used to.  The stonking 6.75 litre went back in and RR returned to increasingly manic chin scratching.

The problems with the Olds V8 were two fold.  High weight, which along with primitive combustion chamber and valve train design led to profligate fuel consumption.  This was an important perceptual marketing issue in the States, even more important in Europe, but of course the Arabs weren't too concerned about it for very obvious reasons.  The irony has always been that anyone rich enough to afford a RR would be utterly unfazed by the high fuel consumption.  This is not a Prius, for which the cloud of smug trailing the car constitutes its principal marketing appeal (thank you Paul, a wonderful metaphor!)...

But the problem of branding remains.  High performance is of secondary concern;  if that were so, the Koenigsegg CC from Sweden would win over the Ferrari every time.  But it does not, and the Prancing Horse steals the showroom sales from arguably the fastest sports car ever made.  And part of that branding remains the very high price of admission.  It is at least as important as the quality of the car, and when you look into the RR, you see a battalion of working class Brit artisans spending days and days to polish one panel at a time whilst they assemble the car with manic attention to detail, and we all love this image of worker bees spending insane hours of hard labor just to create something for me, me, me, and me.......  After all, it's too expensive for just anyone to buy, and I only bought it cause I've got an entire trainload of cash, and you can't have it, so there.......!!

I have no doubt this Tenor amp is just exceptional, and the workmanship will be obsessive and masterful, far more than I could do for example, but just because it is very expensive will not in any way mean that the technology will be bleeding edge.  Far from it.  Frequently one finds bleeding edge and good sound do not mix well......  Bleeding edge technology is more likely to come from Apple, in truth, or Behringer, or FM Acoustic in Germany.

Cheers,

Hugh