Upgraded power cords or high end power conditioner for my setup?

BossaNova31 · « **on:** 2 Dec 2007, 01:23 am »

Hi everyone,

I need advice on what will give me the biggest improvement for my next upgrade - power cords or a high end power conditioner?

My current living situation is a rental apartment, so unfortunately I cannot do anything like having a dedicated line for my system.

I already have upgraded power cords for my Manley Shrimp preamp and my CDP, but the Manley monoblocks (retubed with NOS

) are just using the stock cables for now. The Shrimp and the CDP are plugged into a PS Audio High Current Ultimate Outlet and the monoblocks are plugged strait into the wall.

So I was thinking my next upgrade is either upgraded power cords for the monoblocks or an upgraded conditioner (passive - like a Shunyata Hyrda or a Running Springs unit that I could plug my CDP, pre and monoblocks into). Which one will give me the bigger improvement? My budget for the power cords would be maybe $500 each (used - so say $750 each new). What cords would you recommend in that price range? Also, the cords on my CDP and pre are both Lat International MK2 (budget PCs). Should I put my best PCs on the source/pre or the amps?

Thanks,

Ed

fsimms · « **Reply #1 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 03:54 pm »

Barry Hii(95bcwh) loaned me his Virtual Dynamics Power 3 ($150) power cord. It made a very large difference with my modified Tact 2.2x preamp! The highs smoothed out and the voice improved. The difference was not subtle! This is the only expensive power cord that I have used. Virtual Dynamics makes versions in your price range. I went to a HiFi store and tried the cord with their system and it made a similar difference, but not as much as they were using another quality power cord.

I haven't used power conditioners but Barry is using one.

zybar · « **Reply #2 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 04:03 pm »

Before spending money on power cords (yes, they do make a difference), I would make sure that you have room treatments. Treating your room and proper setup will have a bigger impact than ANY power cord or conditioner can make.

If you decide to go with new power cords, some good vendors to consider are:

Black Sand Cables
VH Audio

Both make high quality and high performing products at very fair prices. Both also offer excellent customer service and will advise you properly on what choices to make, not just try and sell you their most expensive products.

George

fsimms · « **Reply #3 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 04:23 pm »

Here is one person's viewpoint on various power cords.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=103597

boead · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 04:30 pm »

I tried a number of power conditioners including the $3000+ Furman Reference series. In all cases the amps and preamps DIDN’T benefit from a conditioner, in fact it hindered the sound quality. Amps and preamps sound best plugged directly into the wall.
I found the power conditioners had some positive effects with digital components but totally not worth the expense and still it’s a matter of opinion.
I use PS Audio Juice Bars with a selected power cord for the digital components and preamp (only have two outlets, one for the amp, the other for the bars) and will be adding a second receptacle to the wall so the amp and preamp can go directly the wall and juice bars for everything else.

I have found that power cords make the absolute BIGGEST difference on each and ecry component you use. Better or worse is a matter of opinion. I have tried literally a dozen different brand (popular) cords and I LOVE the Harmonic Tech cords the most, second are the Virtual Dynamics.

My favorite, in order;
- Harmonic Tech Model 10 Fantasy
- Harmonic Tech Model 11
- Virtual Dynamics Power 3
- K-works empowered cord (http://www.ttvj.com/index.php?main_page=index&manufacturers_id=58)

PS Audio Juice Bar
http://www.psaudio.com/products/juicebar.asp

The problem with cords and cables is that you have to try them!! What’s good for one component or person isn’t necessarily good for another. However, I found that the Harmonic Tech Fantasy is a no-brainer and never wrong for any component. It has deeper bass, richer midrange and a wonderfully controlled high end. The cheaper model 11 is good but not nearly as good as the Fantasy.
The VD Power 3 is also good; nice topend that’s a crisp with good bass. Not as good or well rounded as the Fantasy cord.
Virtual Dynamics “Night” and “David” cords are superb, its just too expensive.
The K-Works was the biggest surprise for digital components it’s great and a better compromise to a power conditioner.

BTW: Power cords make MUCH more difference then Interconnects and Speaker Cables, once you get past using lamp cord or HomeDepot outdoor extension cord (I’ve tried it all!!)

Remember, use your EARS and not your head when listening. The difference is unmistakenable. And also remember it’s not about the thousands of miles of electric cables from your house to the power plant, its about the last few feet!
You have to draw the line somewhere; I use the power cord to ‘flavor’ the soudnm to my taste. I choose well rounded, full bodied IC’s and speaker cables that are tight and focused and allow the power cord to add the spice I like.

Most IC’s and cables are fuzzy and have limited bass response. But fuzzy, unfocused and smeared image/soundstage is what most IC’s and speaker cables give you, its hard to find cables that work well AND have bass too.

richidoo · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 05:13 pm »

Ditto zybar on his room treatment comments. It is an order of magnitude more important in reducing distortion than power filtering. You will get a lot more bang for your buck, especially if you are a tuber and love tone.

Improving your house wiring to the stereo is also cheaper and more effective than conditioners' contribution, but will still not clean up the line if you have noisy power.

I have Manley Snapper and auditioned the Shrimp extensively. They do benefit greatly from upgrade power cords. I use the Black Sands Silver ref 5 and the upgrade was very noticeable.

I tried Running Springs and Tripp strip both reduced detail dynamics and life. A friend tried Hydra with his RM9 and CJ preamp, hated it. I will be trying Balanced Power soon. Tubes seem to prefer raw AC, at least for power amps. I am curious about regenerative "conditioning" like PS Audio, but not tried that yet either. I am blessed with excellent, quiet power, so it is not a priority with me, just for surge protection.
Rich

anthony a. · « **Reply #6 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 06:55 pm »

well, i would advise you to do both. obviously not now, but definitely in the future. i have also always found passive plc's do harm, whereas balanced power has never, imo, harmed anything. i currently use a blue circle music ring (balanced power unit) that houses 6 outlets and uses 3 separate transformers for isolation. total power capacity is 1200 watts. i have used it in a house with non-dedicated lines and it made a great difference. now in my new house i have dedicated lines and it still works great. i have never found it to do any harm whatsoever except if i plug my 700 watts per channel ss power amp into it (which is obvious as the unit is only rated 1200 watts total). the only harm it does is limiting dynamics, but the added quietness is quite apparent. in any case, i still don't recommend having power amps plugged into anything but straight to the wall, whereas all front-end components will benfit greatly from being plugged into balanced power. the most noteable difference is quietness. it really is spooky the first time you hear how quiet some passages can be.

i would also recommend changing your pc's, first for your amps, then sources including pre. i have always found a lot of improvements in different pc's and have spent quite a large amount on them for my system as well. if i were you, i would do it in stages, the balanced power, imo, is a must for you if you're in an apartment and no dedicated lines. than, tweal some more with cables.

BossaNova31 · « **Reply #7 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 07:13 pm »

Thanks everyone,

Rich, your experience with the Manley gear is very interesting. I currently have a budget cord on the Shrimp preamp (a Lat International AC2). It was a nice improvement over the stock cord but Im sure I can do better.

I sounds like conditioners are not so good on tube amps, but what about surge protection? Are the amp fuses sufficient protection?

So the next step seems to be power cords and maybe upgraded wall recepticals. I read good things about the Synergistic Research Tesla T2 or T3 PCs but I'm sure there are tons of great PCs in that price range.

And yes, I intend to do some room treatments too when I move to my next place in a few months. It doesnt make much sense to invest in any room treatments until I know what room my system will be going in (hopefully a larger room than my current 18x14 space).

zybar · « **Reply #8 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 07:24 pm »

Quote from: BossaNova31 on 2 Dec 2007, 07:13 pm

And yes, I intend to do some room treatments too when I move to my next place in a few months. It doesnt make much sense to invest in any room treatments until I know what room my system will be going in (hopefully a larger room than my current 18x14 space).

Many room treatments can be put on stands or directly on the floor (i.e. don't require permanent mounting), so you can (and should) take advantage of them now.

Again, spending money on cords before room treatment is just plain wasting money.

George

Bigfish · « **Reply #9 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 07:50 pm »

Quote from: BossaNova31 on 2 Dec 2007, 01:23 am

Hi everyone,

I need advice on what will give me the biggest improvement for my next upgrade - power cords or a high end power conditioner?

My current living situation is a rental apartment, so unfortunately I cannot do anything like having a dedicated line for my system.

I already have upgraded power cords for my Manley Shrimp preamp and my CDP, but the Manley monoblocks (retubed with NOS ) are just using the stock cables for now. The Shrimp and the CDP are plugged into a PS Audio High Current Ultimate Outlet and the monoblocks are plugged strait into the wall.

So I was thinking my next upgrade is either upgraded power cords for the monoblocks or an upgraded conditioner (passive - like a Shunyata Hyrda or a Running Springs unit that I could plug my CDP, pre and monoblocks into). Which one will give me the bigger improvement? My budget for the power cords would be maybe $500 each (used - so say $750 each new). What cords would you recommend in that price range? Also, the cords on my CDP and pre are both Lat International MK2 (budget PCs). Should I put my best PCs on the source/pre or the amps?

Thanks,

Ed

Ed:

You are in an apartment so I would guess this means you listen to your system at low to reasonable volumes most of the time. Rich and George are right about room treatments. The room treatments will give you the biggest sound improvement for the investment although if you have revealing speakers you will hear an improvement from new PCs. I purchased the Black Sands Silvers after receiving many recommendations about these wonderful cords. Also, John Cook is a great guy to deal with.

Ken

ecramer · « **Reply #10 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 07:56 pm »

That was a very interesting read. Chris "Lonewolf" has a pair of Black Sands cord and for his Butlers and one more that i believe is a BlackSand Silver Reference MK V at the last two NY rave's They have a nice sound to them. I listened to them on several different amps and they improved the sound for me anyway They are on my short list of system tweaks for my mono's along with a jump up the KCI interconnect line

Quote from: fsimms on 2 Dec 2007, 04:23 pm

Here is one person's viewpoint on various power cords.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=103597

95bcwh · « **Reply #11 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 08:11 pm »

Ed,
It is impossible to make recommendation on power cords unless you tell us exactly what kind of change you want out of changing power cords. I mean, do you want your system to sound warmer? or brighter? more bass? more vocal? more spacious? more precise imaging? More or less forward??

Power cords "generally" make more difference in the source (CDP/DAC/preamp) but not as much when used on amp.

Also bear in mind that any change that you make is not going to improve everything from top to bottom, you're going to gain some and lose some. For example if you want a more pronounced/natural vocal (like listening to singing without microphone), then you will lose the spaciousness of the instruments (and vice versa).

I have met a lot of wierd people in this hobby..and some even dislike "room treatment" because they're used to room echo

So you really have to know what you want, if you don't, go out and listen more!

By the way, the VD power cord is good if you think your current system is a little on the bright side, you want to get rid of the top end harshness and let the midrange to shine through, then VD power cord is for you.

If you want more transparency, more separation between instruments, then look elsewhere.

I am stunned when I first heard of the VD power cords, it's like changing speakers, but it doesn't mean that you can put VD cord everywhere, e.g. I don't like what it does to my running spring Haley power conditioner. I also currently have Black Sand Silver Reference MkIV in my system. The other cords that I've tried included:

-Shunyata Anaconda, VH Audio Flavour 4, Precision AC power cords, Nordost Valhalla, plus others from MIT, Cardas, Audioquest..etc etc..

There's no single cord that does it all. Likewise, there's no single cable, single preamp/amp that does it all, you gain some and you lose some, the more you understand your own taste, the easier it is to find something that makes you happy.

Quote from: BossaNova31 on 2 Dec 2007, 01:23 am

So I was thinking my next upgrade is either upgraded power cords for the monoblocks or an upgraded conditioner (passive - like a Shunyata Hyrda or a Running Springs unit that I could plug my CDP, pre and monoblocks into). Which one will give me the bigger improvement? My budget for the power cords would be maybe $500 each (used - so say $750 each new). What cords would you recommend in that price range? Also, the cords on my CDP and pre are both Lat International MK2 (budget PCs). Should I put my best PCs on the source/pre or the amps?

Thanks,

Ed

95bcwh · « **Reply #12 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 10:18 pm »

High fidelity audio is for enjoyment, it's not supposed to be understood

Actually..once you understand that different people look for different thing, then it's not too hard to understand why swapping cable is like flipping a coin. Because there is no words that can describe accurately one individual's taste. The same terms used by different people can mean totally different things.

Of course, it doesn't help when you have thousands of cable companies selling high-priced wires, each touting their own "proprietary" designs, but unwilling to disclose further technical details - which implies the so-called "proprietary" is not really something special, and can be easily copied by amatuers.

Quote from: BrianM on 2 Dec 2007, 09:54 pm

Something tells me that if the outcome of a power cord swap is understood to be akin to flipping a coin (or several coins) then this area of high fidelity enhancement is, to say the least, poorly understood.

richidoo · « **Reply #13 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 10:59 pm »

Quote from: BrianM on 2 Dec 2007, 09:54 pm

Something tells me that if the outcome of a power cord swap is understood to be akin to flipping a coin (or several coins) then this area of high fidelity enhancement is, to say the least, poorly understood.

Not poorly understood by the cord makers, nor by users that can hear the difference a good PC makes. It's not hard to appreciate the benefits of aftermarket power cords, but you DO have to have an IEC inlet to try them.

Midnite Mick · « **Reply #14 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 11:34 pm »

I am a big fan of aftermarket power cords as well. I live in the second floor of a duplex, therefore I cannot mess around with the wiring and such. The power cord upgrade made a huge difference in several areas, including accuracy, seperation of instruments, soundstage, and background noise. However, for some reason cords are equipment specific. I tried the highly regarded Black Sand Silver ref V on my amps and they just killed the dynamics and collapsed my soundstage for some reason. I then tried some Manitou Thunderbird cords with Oyaide 004 terminations and they made a huge impact.

I wonder though if one were to have dedicated lines and such whether cords would make as big a difference as when one doesn't.

Good luck,
Mike

PS. John Cook from Black Sand is a great guy to deal with

95bcwh · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Dec 2007, 12:02 am »

Some power cords act as EQ, some just do basic filtering of electrical noise.

The first one will change the tonal balance of the sound regardless of whether you're using a dedicated line or not. The second one won't change the tone, but may lower the noise floor.

I laugh every time when I read reviews that used the same kind of 'deceiving words' over and over again to describe cords/cables which clearly color the sound, such as: "This cord/cable just let the music flows....." - which essentially means "NOTHING"!

Quote from: Midnite Mick on 2 Dec 2007, 11:34 pm

I wonder though if one were to have dedicated lines and such whether cords would make as big a difference as when one doesn't.

Good luck,
Mike

PS. John Cook from Black Sand is a great guy to deal with

BossaNova31 · « **Reply #16 on:** 3 Dec 2007, 12:13 am »

Thanks again everyone,

To answer 95bcwh, what I am hoping to acheive thru either power cords or conditioning would be 1) blacker background, 2) more powerful bass and 3) a bigger soundstage. I don't feel that I need extra warmth or brightness so I suppose I would like a neutral sounding cable. I'm not certain that I will get all of these things but even one of the three would be worthwhile. I plan to upgrade both my PCs and buy a better conditioner eventually, so just trying to figure out how to prioritize my $$$ right now.

And yes, room treatment is next on my list as well. With the room treatment, I just plan to do a few basic tweeks, as my listening area is also my living room (and I care somewhat about aesthetics).

mca · « **Reply #17 on:** 3 Dec 2007, 12:25 am »

Check out the new issue of affordableaudio.org for a nice power cord comparison.

fsimms · « **Reply #18 on:** 3 Dec 2007, 12:25 am »

Quote

Not poorly understood by the cord makers, nor by users that can hear the difference a good PC makes.[/b]

The difference that I heard with the VD Power 3 cable was not subtle. Even the most tin ear person would notice it. I would have lost money if I bet somebody that there wouldn't be any significant difference. I wasn't a believer in Voodoo.

I am sure there is as logical technical explanation, but I haven't a clue.

denjo · « **Reply #19 on:** 3 Dec 2007, 12:34 am »

PCs are not just placebo effect! They do make a real difference! But, finding the right pc is an arudous task and often quite accidental. If only there was a business which rented out power cords for audiophiles to try in their system? That would save quite a bit of mistakes made in the past!