Budget amp for Selah RC3R

powderific · « **on:** 1 Dec 2007, 07:46 pm »

I built a pair of Selah audio RC3Rs a while back and I'm really happy with them, but I've been told by many people that my Harmon Kardon HK3480 is a decent receiver for the money, but could be better. I'd love to upgrade to something from Odyssey or other high end manufacturers, but I simply don't have the cash.

I've heard many good things about the Panasonic XR55 series amps and they're affordable. Would they be an improvement over my current amp? Any idea on whether my speakers would work with its passive biamping support? My RC3Rs have two binding posts on the back, but I honestly can't remember how the input cup is wired on the inside. That said, I wouldn't know what to look for even if I opened the speakers back up to check.

Any advice would be appreciated. If there aren't any good budget options I'll just put my amp buying urges into a little tripath for my single driver zigmahornets.

bhobba · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Dec 2007, 11:09 pm »

The panny does sound quite good and has a sound above its price point because it is basically an amp and dac in one. However digital amps are not everyones cup of tea. But then again, unless you are an experienced audiophile, that has listened to a lot of amps you may not notice much, if any difference. Blind listening tests done with Joe average shows very little difference, if any between, competently designed amplifiers. To pick differences you need to be an experienced knowledgeable listener. I believe the Harmon Kardon HK3480 has pre outs. A better option than a new receiver could be a power amp. There are number of cheapish ones around these days eg the Behringer A500 at $180
http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=20&blogId=1
'The measurements of the Behringer A500 are not quite as good as those of any number of more expensive solid-state amplifiers but they are more than good enough to meet all the criteria for transparent sound as specified above, in the second paragraph of this review. There is no such thing as an effect without a cause, and there is no scientifically verifiable characteristic that would cause the A500 to sound different from any other amplifier that meets those criteria. The main reason why golden-eared audiophiles hear differences between amplifiers that do meet those criteria is that they don’t listen at matched levels. (Let’s not even bring up the more complicated subject of double-blind listening tests.) If one amplifier is just 0.2 dB louder than another, it will sound different, and therefore “better” or “worse.” Someone is sure to say at this point, “Well, what about that –0.6 dB rolloff at 20 kHz?” Come on. I can’t hear it; millions of others can’t hear it; if you can hear it, let that be the one and only way the A500 sounds “different.” No, sound quality is not the issue here.'

A word of caution here - Peter Aczel hold views not in line with the audiophile mainstream - he believes all amplifiers basically sound the same. For your average casual listener it is probably true. But audiophiles are not you average listener. Still the amp does have reasonable specs and is very cheap.

To get an 'audiophile' amp unfortunately requires a bit more than $200.00. On a budget I recommend a Van Alstine as an actual audiophile amp:
http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/amplifier/omegastar_240.htm

They allow you to audition them, which is obviously the best way to go. Trouble is dealers/manufactures that allow you this privilege are not likely to be the cheapest.

For what its worth I would get an audition of the Van Alstine. If it doesn't sound any better than the Harmon Kardon stick with that, otherwise fork out the extra dosh for the Van Alstine.

Thanks
Bill

ecramer · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Dec 2007, 11:19 pm »

This will work real nice with those http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=47999.0 Not a lot of cash but some great sound.

powderific · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 Dec 2007, 11:50 pm »

Thanks for the advice, I found some of those amps while searching around. The Khartago is out of my price range, as is the Van Alstine, but I'd like to upgrade to one or the other someday. I really like what I've heard about the Van Alstine gear though.

My primary source is a computer, so having the amp/dac combo in the panasonic would be nice.

The Behringer looks like a fine option (the HK does have pre-outs, I've used it as a preamp with a Yamaha that had a bad pre-section before), but I'd ideally get a full replacement so I could repurpose my HK. I've also had a good bit of trouble finding decent reviews on tthe A500, people mention it a lot but no one seems to actually buy it. Looks like there may be some build quality issues too. I guess I wouldn't mind keeping my HK as a pre, it's certainly prettier than the panasonic.

ecramer · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 12:15 am »

You could also check audiogon for a rawsonit gainclone real good reviews there and they are pretty resonable

bikes and beats · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 12:19 am »

How about these.
Can you beat 129.00 for a 150 watt mono amp?
That's less than 87 cents a watt!

http://www.emotiva.com/bpa1.html

... courtesy the participants of the AV123.com forum.

powderific · « **Reply #6 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 12:50 am »

Wow, a pair of those wouldn't break the bank too much and they wouldn't take up too much space. I don't know anything abouit the company though, how good are those little amps?

bhobba · « **Reply #7 on:** 2 Dec 2007, 01:21 am »

Quote from: powderific on 2 Dec 2007, 12:50 am

Wow, a pair of those wouldn't break the bank too much and they wouldn't take up too much space. I don't know anything abouit the company though, how good are those little amps?

From the Emotiva site:

'We are so confident in the quality of our products that we invite you to try them in your own home for 30 days. If you are not 100% satisfied for any reason, just call us to return your product and we'll refund your purchase price. It's that simple.'

Looks like their is not much to loose. You can write you own review and guide others.

Thanks
Bill

powderific · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Dec 2007, 05:57 pm »

Actually, I just read the manuals and it looks like the bridged mode wouldn't work with my speakers. Bridged, the minimum impedance is 8 ohms, but Selah lists my speakers with an avg. 6 ohm impedance and 4.8 minimum. That pushes me a bit more towards the A500, but it's almost impossible to find reviews from anyone who actually has one. The only detailed info I found was from someone like Azcal who measured distortion and called it good. Though I agree with his statements that there is a LOT of snake oil in the audio world and I wish there was more blind testing of audio gear, I don't think plugging your ears and claiming that differences in sound are impossible is terribly constructive.

bhobba · « **Reply #9 on:** 3 Dec 2007, 08:23 pm »

Quote from: powderific on 3 Dec 2007, 05:57 pm

Actually, I just read the manuals and it looks like the bridged mode wouldn't work with my speakers. Bridged, the minimum impedance is 8 ohms, but Selah lists my speakers with an avg. 6 ohm impedance and 4.8 minimum.

No need to bridge them. 75 watts is enough for an 85 db speaker like yours.
http://www.ellisaudio.com/wattsratings.htm
'Hence, it might seem impressive to have 150wpc speakers, but this means almost nothing. It is an almost meaningless exaggeration of what is happening. Given 85db/watt speakers, a good El34 push pull (about 35wpc) or a good 60wpc stereo amplifier will get the job done with more than enough power. It is also why a good 10 watts of push pull can sound incredibly good at normal listening levels. Most often we listen to 2-3 watts of nominal power through our speakers. The peaks are obviously higher (5x - 10x nominal), and some headroom is needed.'

Your hearing is logarithmic meaning a 1KW monster will only sound twice as loud as 100W, and 4 times as loud as 10W.

Quote from: powderific on 3 Dec 2007, 05:57 pm

Though I agree with his statements that there is a LOT of snake oil in the audio world and I wish there was more blind testing of audio gear, I don't think plugging your ears and claiming that differences in sound are impossible is terribly constructive.

Guys like Peter Aczel claim that blind listening tests back their view up:
http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

I have investigated this matter a lot. My conclusion, and if you are really interested I can provide the details, is that casual, non experienced and/or trained listeners have difficulty telling amplifiers apart. Those with a lot of experience, guys like Hugh Dean from Aspen audio who design amps by ear, can readily hear even a change in capacitor in a system. To most people it is speakers that determine the overall sound of systems. To Hugh it is the amplifier. Unless you are that knowledgeable and experienced I wouldn't be too worried about amplifier sound. The emotiva will give you more than enough power and sound transparent. As your experience increases the subtle differences between amps will become more apprent. That is the time to invest into something better. For what its worth, why not get the emotiva and conduct a blind listening test against your current amp? If you can't hear any difference simply return it for a full refund. Over time listen to other systems, have friends bring their amps over, join an audio society, basically get the experience that will allow you to 'appreciate' audiophile amps. Hopefully by that time your financial situation will allow you to invest in one.

Thanks
Bill

bhobba · « **Reply #10 on:** 3 Dec 2007, 09:53 pm »

Quote from: powderific on 3 Dec 2007, 05:57 pm

Actually, I just read the manuals and it looks like the bridged mode wouldn't work with my speakers. Bridged, the minimum impedance is 8 ohms, but Selah lists my speakers with an avg. 6 ohm impedance and 4.8 minimum.

If the RC3R allows you to biwire then biamping them, rather than bridging them, is the way to go. I can state, from actual blind listening tests, biamping does produce audible improvements. I strongly suspect two Emotiva's biamped will be an improvement over your current amp.

Why biamping produces improvements see:
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

Although about active biamping, and Rod is negative on passive biamping, the blind listening tests I did was with passive biamping on a pair of LS88's and a rotel 5 channel amp. It produced clear and audiophile improvements. If you think about it, many of the benefits touted by Rod on active biamping, apply to passive biamping eg when it is not drawing current at frequencies outside the crossover it is not straining the amp as much.

Thanks
Bill

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Dec 2007, 10:57 pm »

It looks like the Emotiva site can't keep their facts straight. In one place the BPA-1 is listed at 75 watts x 2 into 4 ohms. That would make it about a 50 watt into 8 ohms stereo amp. On the order page it's listed as a 150 watt stereo amp. Which is it?

++++++++

You haven't given a budget, so....

One possibility is the Outlaw receiver http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html.

Another is the smaller ATI amps http://www.ati-amp.com/at602.html. ATI is a well regarded US manufacturer. I use the AT602 in my office system. I think it's a great amp. Build quality is excellent. I've had it up for sale in the last couple of months. If you're interested, drop me an email.

Christof · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Dec 2007, 11:33 pm »

Powderific

I ran a pair of Ricks Chalcedony speakers for a couple years in my system. This is essentially a Tanzanite + whomp sub, not much different that your design with the same Fountek and Morel dome but uses a Seas Excel midbass. I tried a few amps with these speakers including a Panny XR45, Dared VP20 6L6 type mono's, Carver HTR receiver, Outlaw 950 pre/pro and Odyssey Khartago. Without a doubt I prefered the Khartago amps with a tube pre. I tried the Chalcedony's with one Khartago and with two khartago's(vertical biamp) and could not tell a difference b/t the two config's. Regardless of what route you go keep in mind that the Fountek likes juice. There was a night and day difference b/t the various amps I tried with mine.

Now for the shameless spam:
I commissioned Rick to do a no-holds-barred design for me. I need alot of juice for these new speakers so I am selling my Khartago's to upgrade to a bigger biamp set-up consisting of a Symphonic Line RG-1 (high pass) + Odyssey Dual Mono's (lowpass). I have one Khartago left and will make you the same offer that I accepted from the last buyer, $425 shipped. There is alot of warranty left on this amp.

bhobba · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Dec 2007, 11:54 pm »

Quote from: Christof on 3 Dec 2007, 11:33 pm

Now for the shameless spam:
I commissioned Rick to do a no-holds-barred design for me. I need alot of juice for these new speakers so I am selling my Khartago's to upgrade to a bigger biamp set-up consisting of a Symphonic Line RG-1 (high pass) + Odyssey Dual Mono's (lowpass). I have one Khartago left and will make you the same offer that I accepted from the last buyer, $425 shipped. There is alot of warranty left on this amp.

Another outcome of my blind listening on the LS88's was that, generally, a better quality amp gives you more bang for your buck than biamping. I tried a single ME amp of the LS88's (it was about the same price as the Rotel 5ch) and it was clearly better again - a dryer more truthfull sound. The reason - ME amps are really high current (they claimed to easily handle 1 ohm) and the LS88's go down to 2 ohms at crossover - a really tough load for any amp. The moral - biamping is good - but a higher quality single amp is better. BTW, I ended up using the Rotel because ME went out of business. Producing a better product at a reasonable price is no guarantee of success.

Thanks
Bill

bhobba · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Dec 2007, 11:59 pm »

Quote from: Bob Reynolds on 3 Dec 2007, 10:57 pm

It looks like the Emotiva site can't keep their facts straight. In one place the BPA-1 is listed at 75 watts x 2 into 4 ohms. That would make it about a 50 watt into 8 ohms stereo amp. On the order page it's listed as a 150 watt stereo amp. Which is it?

Typical marketing bull. I am pretty sure it is about a 45-50W into 8 ohms per channel stereo amp that can be bridged to give 150W into 8 ohms.

Thanks
Bill

powderific · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Dec 2007, 12:56 am »

Christof, someone actually linked your sell thread earlier. That's a great deal but it's simply out of my pricerange right now; I'd want to pick up a good preamp to go with it and before long I'm in the poorhouse. I doubt you'll have trouble selling it at that price though. I've heard from many, many people that the Khartago is a great match for the RC3Rs and it has been on my list of possibilities since I built the speakers.

What did you think of the Panny XR45 with your Chalcedonys?

Thanks for the great articles Bill, they're helpful. From what they say, I guess it'd be silly for me to change amps at all. It's all a bit confusing as the money spent on my speakers definitely made for an audible difference (I suppose that's one advantage of starting with 4" fullrange driver speakers). I'd assumed that a better amp might have a similar, if much smaller, effect on my system. I have one other friend who's also somewhat into audio equipment, but he bought the exact same amp as me so I don't have much chance to compare.

If 75 watts is enough for my speakers, then the 120 watts of my HK should actually be more than enough. A few people in my original "help me pick speakers" thread suggested that a more powerful amp might help me get the best out of them. If that's BS, I guess I'm most interested in the Panasonic for its onboard DAC (my sound card's octupus of outputs is wearing out, so it'd be nice to bypass it entirely by moving that processing to a receiver or external DAC).

I might wind up holding off for now until one of the higher end amps suggested in this thread is doable. If it isn't all a giant conspiracy. Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone.

mfsoa · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Dec 2007, 01:21 am »

Powder,
I have an amp and preamp I'd sell that would be a great bang for the buck.
Since there has been some understandable sensitivity around here about unsolicited solicitation, I won't say more unless you ask, OK?

-Mike

bhobba · « **Reply #17 on:** 4 Dec 2007, 01:22 am »

Quote from: powderific on 4 Dec 2007, 12:56 am

A few people in my original "help me pick speakers" thread suggested that a more powerful amp might help me get the best out of them. If that's BS, I guess I'm most interested in the Panasonic for its onboard DAC (my sound card's octupus of outputs is wearing out, so it'd be nice to bypass it entirely by moving that processing to a receiver or external DAC).

It is BS in the sense of the power required to produce sound at sane levels - as explained by Dave Ellis's article. It may not be BS in the sense of current necessary to make your speakers sound their best. Impedance can sometimes dip to low values in crossovers and require a lot of current to drive. That is one reason why biamping works - impedance is usually worst at crossover. But that is not the whole story - some amps are better at handling variations in impedance - not just low impedance - than others. Damping factor is also a consideration.

Why not lay off getting a new amp until you have had a chance to audition different amps? Are those that recommended you get a bigger amp willing to bring theirs over to try in your system? By finding out what amps sound better in your system you will be in the position to know what to spend your money on when the time comes - and have fun in the process.

Thanks
Bill

powderific · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Dec 2007, 02:15 am »

Thanks Bill, that makes more sense. I think you have the right idea about auditioning; waiting until I have enough saved up to look at higher end amps that I can audition may be my best course, and I never thought about the fun aspect of buying new amps as I'd not given that higher end stuff much serious consideration.

Mike, despite what I just said I'm quite happy to hear what you have to offer. You can PM me or just post here.

mfsoa · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Dec 2007, 03:09 am »

Mr. Powder,
I have a Forte Model 40 preamp and an Aragon 2004 Mk I poweramp that I'm not using.

In case you don't know, Forte was the "budget" line made by Threshold. I bought it new (dealer demo, actually) around 1991. Lots of inputs and a phone stage as well. Outboard power supply. I think it listed for $1100-ish new.

Aragon was the "budget" line made by Krell. The 2004 was one of the initial amps in the line. A non-BS 100 watts at 8 ohms, runs very cool. In my house the amp has a small transformer hum, but so do my Channel Island D200s and my current tube amp at times. I can try it out in other places if we need to. I think it was $1200 or 1400 new. Also bought as dealer demo. It's also about 15 years old. It's been a while so I'm not too good with specifics.

Price? I'm not exactly sure. I'll check the Orion Blue book but I'm thinking $550 for the pair?

I think this would be a good combo for the price, if you (or anyone else

) are interested. My camera is broken now but I can find a pic of the preamp in the Gallery - we used it at the October Rave at my place.

Thanks for listening and good luck with your quest!

-Mike (where do you live? You are more than welcome to visit if near NJ)