[Housteau]

Just to make a point rather clear, SL's point source is actually omni-directional. 

Yes, my mistake.

[nathanm]

Who wants to go sit in a windowless room full of treatments and completely devoid of soul and character to listen to music?

Me  .  Actually I do have one window, due to some arm twisting by my contractor, and I think a dedicated listening room can have a lot of soul and character.

That's right, and besides you should never argue with a man with that many swords.  Housteau could cut ya'll  to ribbons in a hundred different ways!   Watch out man, don't cross him!

Windowless and full of treatments doesn't have to imply soulless and characterless.  If anything it adds a lot of character.  Personally I'd rather have wall to wall wedge foam than throw pillows and knick knacks anyway.  And if you're loaded get the RPG stuff which looks swank as all get out.  Nobody would look at that stuff and think you were an audio nerd, they'd think it was sculpture and you were a big fancy pants.

I do however agree that Linkwitz' goal of making real-world speakers for untreated rooms is very wise.  But speakers or no, I find a soft room to be more comfortable than a hard one, regardless of what's in it.  Lively drywall\plywood\brick\plaster sounds great for making music, but for listening I think the library\study superquiet scenario is preferable.  But then again that might not be an option for those who need the A from the W.  Poor bastards.

[sunshinedawg]

And how would you and those 10 people being doing this in such a way as to create a live event (particularly since most multichannel music doesn't set out to do this)? 

I don't use multichannel music as a source. I take mono and stereo music and manipulate it to create the extra channels.

Personally, I much prefer two channel over multichannel music.  When I start hearing people playing behind me (where they shouldn't be), I immediately get turned off.

I don't have people playing behind me. I have reverberation sounds coming from behind me that reproduce natural hall ambiance, similar to what you would have heard if you were at the original venue.

I also totally -- and I mean totally -- disagree with "Two channel has way too many intrinsic problems to overcome to ever sound real or create an illusion of being there."  In fact, that's why I like two channel music:  I actually feel as if Johnny Cash is sitting in my room and giving a personal performance. 

That's fine if you disagree, but you can't break the laws of physics. Johnny Cash will never sound like he is "really" in your room. If Johnny were in front of you, his voice would be coming from one point, directly in front of you, not from two different loudspeakers that are in two totally different places than he actually is. You explained it perfectly by saying you "feel" he is there, in my setup he "is" there.

If you really want to evolve to the next step, you can do some research into how the ear/brain mechanism works. You will quickly discover that two channel, equilateral setups are far from optimal to create a real sound field. It's just not how we hear. Hence the intrinsic problems I mentioned.

I don't understand why so many swear by two channel, equilateral setups. It just doesn't make any sense to me. It is such a narrow, constricting view of the possibilities. It doesn't have any basis in logic. It's as if someone said were just gonna stick two speakers in front of us and that has to be best possible way to do it. Once you break away, you'll wonder why it took you so long.

[RodMCV]

Great topic!

When reviewing the pitfalls to 2 channel reproduction as defined by
Dr.Linkwitz, I come to think this is why the SP Tech speakers sound so good.
Bob Smith of SP Tech has answered the many difficulties in a wonderful package.
His speakers are 2 way and  with Linkwitz design crossover.

[goskers]

Rod,

I agree and disagree with you on the SPTech designs.  They differences lie in the fact that SPTech uses a waveguide which would place them into more of a controlled directivity category.  This does offer the advantage of keeping your power response contained to certain areas but does limit room interaction to a certain degree.  Dipoles limit room interaction from side wall artifacts from cancellation but excit the room in a different manner from a horn or waveguide equipped design.  Linkwitz is a little rare right now that he is fully utilizing the room during playback where many others are trying to minimize it's involvement altogether.

[Housteau]

That's fine if you disagree, but you can't break the laws of physics. Johnny Cash will never sound like he is "really" in your room. If Johnny were in front of you, his voice would be coming from one point, directly in front of you, not from two different loudspeakers that are in two totally different places than he actually is. You explained it perfectly by saying you "feel" he is there, in my setup he "is" there.

Speaking for myself I have to say that this is true, but only because Johnny has not yet been invited to play in my room .  To say out of hand that your created illusion is automatically better not actually having heard that other system, or mine is wrong.  Your reasoning mentioned above has a few flaws as well.  So, what if Johnny is not dead center and is actually just right of center.  My guess is that you do not have a speaker between your center channel and your far right speaker.  You hear Johnny right of center because of the mix of sounds coming from the center and right speaker.  So, your illusion is being created by Johnny coming "from two different loudspeakers that are in two totally different places than he actually is".  The mechanics and physics are the same. 

If you really want to evolve to the next step, you can do some research into how the ear/brain mechanism works. You will quickly discover that two channel, equilateral setups are far from optimal to create a real sound field. It's just not how we hear. Hence the intrinsic problems I mentioned.

I don't understand why so many swear by two channel, equilateral setups. It just doesn't make any sense to me. It is such a narrow, constricting view of the possibilities. It doesn't have any basis in logic. It's as if someone said were just gonna stick two speakers in front of us and that has to be best possible way to do it. Once you break away, you'll wonder why it took you so long.

I understand the physics, how the ear/brain system works and the theory of multi-channel reproduction.  And I don't think too many people would disagree with the theory, or that it is a future trend.  It is more having to do with the current applications I think.  In many ways I feel that typical home theater has really hurt high end multi-channel music reproduction, by catering to the lowest common denominator.  Yes I see the possibilities, but I also see the music companies treating 5.1 as a gimmick by placing sounds in speakers just because they are there.  The same thing happened to Quadraphonic sound.  Originally all 4 speakers were to be placed in front of the listener, not in the corners around them.  Good two channel reproduction is also extremely difficult to achieve in a home theater set-up, which makes comparing the two within the same system next to impossible.

If you are on to something new and exciting then that is great and I would like to hear it sometime.  I have experimented with just rear speakers to try and reproduce the natural ambiance in recordings, similar to the old Haffler Effect.  It was interesting, but no more realistic than what I already had, which was pretty good at the time, but not even close to what I have now.  Placing in a center channel speaker would be just plain blasphemy .

[sunshinedawg]

Speaking for myself I have to say that this is true, but only because Johnny has not yet been invited to play in my room .  To say out of hand that your created illusion is automatically better not actually having heard that other system, or mine is wrong.  Your reasoning mentioned above has a few flaws as well.  So, what if Johnny is not dead center and is actually just right of center.  My guess is that you do not have a speaker between your center channel and your far right speaker.  You hear Johnny right of center because of the mix of sounds coming from the center and right speaker.  So, your illusion is being created by Johnny coming "from two different loudspeakers that are in two totally different places than he actually is".  The mechanics and physics are the same. 

You are assuming way too much. I don't have a center speaker, left speaker, or right speaker. Any sound that was meant to come directly to my ears, ie from Johnny's mouth, is never duplicated in any other channel in my system. There is no mixing of sounds as you said and I don't have speakers in the configuration you mentioned.

I understand the physics, how the ear/brain system works and the theory of multi-channel reproduction.  And I don't think too many people would disagree with the theory, or that it is a future trend.  It is more having to do with the current applications I think.  In many ways I feel that typical home theater has really hurt high end multi-channel music reproduction, by catering to the lowest common denominator.  Yes I see the possibilities, but I also see the music companies treating 5.1 as a gimmick by placing sounds in speakers just because they are there.  The same thing happened to Quadraphonic sound.  Originally all 4 speakers were to be placed in front of the listener, not in the corners around them.  Good two channel reproduction is also extremely difficult to achieve in a home theater set-up, which makes comparing the two within the same system next to impossible.

If you are on to something new and exciting then that is great and I would like to hear it sometime.  I have experimented with just rear speakers to try and reproduce the natural ambiance in recordings, similar to the old Haffler Effect.  It was interesting, but no more realistic than what I already had, which was pretty good at the time, but not even close to what I have now.  Placing in a center channel speaker would be just plain blasphemy .

You might understand the physics of the problem, but you don't understand how to manipulate the sound on your end so it matches the physics of the sound like you would have heard had you been there.  This is were everybody loses their way. The funny thing is this is nothing new, ie the theories have been around for  years and people are already doing it, and have so for a long time. It really is a simple problem if you think about it objectively. How do you copy a 3d sound and make it sound real in your home. The first step is to realize that it can not be done with a 2 channel equilateral setup, from there its pretty easy. All you have to do is recreate all the sounds from the live event, put them in the places they are suppose to be and make sure they are reaching your ears at the right time. This might sound impossible to do, but it really isn't that difficult once you see the larger picture.

[*Scotty*]

sunshinedawg, I am always up for learning something new,can you explain what you are doing? All we have to go on is your links to your gallery
which show a HT setup. What are the required components for this different approach to sound reproduction?
Scotty

[Housteau]

You are assuming way too much. I don't have a center speaker, left speaker, or right speaker. Any sound that was meant to come directly to my ears, ie from Johnny's mouth, is never duplicated in any other channel in my system. There is no mixing of sounds as you said and I don't have speakers in the configuration you mentioned.

Apparently I have  .  I was thinking more along the lines of what are considered multi-channel standards today.

[sunshinedawg]

sunshinedawg, I am always up for learning something new,can you explain what you are doing? All we have to go on is your links to your gallery
which show a HT setup. What are the required components for this different approach to sound reproduction?
Scotty

The three basic elements you need are, crosstalk cancellation, hall IR surround ambience generation and a first reflection generator.

Here is a link to the ISVR website to get you started.

Apparently I have  .  I was thinking more along the lines of what are considered multi-channel standards today.

I wasn't kidding when I said I only knew of 10 people doing this!

[sts9fan]

So how do you generate the hall sounds for different halls?  Do you record them?  Also could you please tell use how may speakers you are using and were they are placed in relation to the listener?

Kris

[sunshinedawg]

So how do you generate the hall sounds for different halls?  Do you record them?  Also could you please tell use how may speakers you are using and were they are placed in relation to the listener?

Kris

I generate the hall sounds with a JVC XP-A1010tn. I don't record them they are already loaded. There are ways to have thousands of halls stored with other equipment. I just use a few that are already on this unit. I have two speakers directly in front of me at 10o seperation, two first relection speakers at 65o and various speakers around the sides and back of me.

[Housteau]

You should consider starting a new thread for this is an interesting topic by itself.  How do you deal with the natural reflections in a room so that they will not mix with the ones you are creating?

[Housteau]

That's right, and besides you should never argue with a man with that many swords.  Housteau could cut ya'll  to ribbons in a hundred different ways!   Watch out man, don't cross him!

Actually I am a bit vulnerable now recovering from a training injury  .

[sunshinedawg]

You should consider a new thread for this as this is an interesting topic by itself.  How do you deal with the natural reflections in a room so that they will not mix with the ones you are creating?

You try to create a room that is as anechoic as possible.

[JLM]

acd483,

Actually I have a decent (about $2500 MSRP) 2nd system set up in the living room for all to enjoy, but like most here no one else in the family is interested. 

I can count the number of times in 6 years that my wife has turned on the stereo on one hand.  Everyone else in the house would rather curl up with a TV, computer, iPod, or Gameboy.

Perhaps its more pretentious to try up the main living space with your equipment and music.

[stereocilia]

When I have more time and a machine with power point I'll get through the lecture.

Regarding putting sounds back in the locations from which they came in a real-live event, I'm reminded of an article, in Scientific American, I think (maybe somebody else remembers) about time-reversal mirrors.  The idea is to use a very large number of transducers, the more the better, all the way around any given space.  Each transducer could record sound and then play it backwards -- reversing the waves back exactly as they propagated outward, directly back to the point where they originated.  IIRC, it's been applied to clicks in fluids but not to sounds in real spaces.  I guess the hard part would be asking musicians to play and sing backwards.   

[acd483]

acd483,

Actually I have a decent (about $2500 MSRP) 2nd system set up in the living room for all to enjoy, but like most here no one else in the family is interested. 

I can count the number of times in 6 years that my wife has turned on the stereo on one hand.  Everyone else in the house would rather curl up with a TV, computer, iPod, or Gameboy.

Perhaps its more pretentious to try up the main living space with your equipment and music.

You shouldn't expect people to come into your house and comment on sound reproduction. To me, they should enjoy themselves and be subconsciously aware that some aspect of the party is *right*. There is simply no pretense in that.

Every aspect of our lives involves compromise. Linkwitz has an extremely admirable goal of reproducing music in real living spaces with performance that fools the mind and ear. I can tell you, they work, and they work better than in any dedicated listening room I've been in.

[JLM]

acd483,

Actually I have a decent (about $2500 MSRP) 2nd system set up in the living room for all to enjoy, but like most here no one else in the family is interested. 

I can count the number of times in 6 years that my wife has turned on the stereo on one hand.  Everyone else in the house would rather curl up with a TV, computer, iPod, or Gameboy.

Perhaps its more pretentious to try up the main living space with your equipment and music.

You shouldn't expect people to come into your house and comment on sound reproduction. To me, they should enjoy themselves and be subconsciously aware that some aspect of the party is *right*. There is simply no pretense in that.

Every aspect of our lives involves compromise. Linkwitz has an extremely admirable goal of reproducing music in real living spaces with performance that fools the mind and ear. I can tell you, they work, and they work better than in any dedicated listening room I've been in.

I don't expect people to listen or comment (unless showing them "the system"), but my family just doesn't want to "sit and listen".  Due to circumstances "parties" are few, but again most visitors consider music an annoyance or at the least an obstruction to conversation.  Personally I agree that background music is very nice, but wifey "just wants the house to be quiet" when she's home alone.

I've heard a few dipoles.  Their presentation is obviously different than "traditional" speakers, but not necessarily better.  (They are my 2nd favorite speaker design.)  But I consider the room as an important component of any system.  Even the Orions (I do respect SL and his goal) need some sort of decent room to work well in.  My compromise is to put the best system in the best room for it to be enjoyed by someone who appreciates it, the 2nd best system in a common room (that no one uses  ), and the 3rd best system in the HT set up.

[sts9fan]

I generate the hall sounds with a JVC XP-A1010tn. I don't record them they are already loaded. There are ways to have thousands of halls stored with other equipment. I just use a few that are already on this unit. I have two speakers directly in front of me at 10o seperation, two first relection speakers at 65o and various speakers around the sides and back of me.

Interesting.  I am not sure I would want to apply the same sounds to all my recordings.  It would seem to me that it would add a bit of homogeneity.  Do you do this to studio produced albums?  I am very interested in what you are doing.