[Bigfish]

Guys:

I currently own Odyssey Mono SEs and a Candela.  Since I am still relatively new to this hobby I would like to know the advantages of tube amps vs. SS and vice versa.  My impression is SS tends to be much more powerful for the $$, don't generate as much heat as the tube amps (maybe an issue in the summer and a positive in the winter) and are probably simpler amps to maintain.  However, I think the tube amps look really kool and am really interested in learning about your experiences with both power sources.

Thanks,

Ken

[tanchiro58]

Hi Ken,

Well you can get a push-pull tube amp (211s or 845s or 300Bs) which could have enough power to drive your hard-to-driven speakers. SS amps do have power but they do not have a blooming and sweetness characteristic of tubes. Some class A (but actual class A/B) SS amps run hot too.



Tan

[Sonny]

Hi there, Tan is right about SS vs Tubes...

Tubes do normally have that sweet midrange and lushness to vocals, but that is due to the Harmonic Distortion that is inherent in tubes....Solid state to me has great attack and dynamics, for the money that is.  It's hard to get great high power push-pull tube amps at an affordable price while a 200wpc SS amp can be had for less than a $1000.

But hey, it's all up to tastes and preferences...

here's mine, the Consonance Cyber 800 push-pull 78wpc EL34/6CA7 tube amps.



Tuan

[Steve]

Hi Bigfish,

     I agree except that tube amps don't necessarily have to bloom the sound. I think alot is in the individual design.

     I think tube amps are more sensitive to the speakers as well, esp in the bass. The speakers have to be designed so the bass does not boom as the damping factor is not nearly as high as most ss designs.

I think another important consideration is the transparency of tube amps. I think it is better. But that is just my personal opinion. Many prefer ss amps to tube amps or hybrid such as tube preamplifier and ss amps.

ICs might work better with one amp vs another as well. Experimentation might be in order to achieve what you prefer.

Hope this helps Bigfish.

[denjo]

Tan

Just curious - how does your BYOB sound compared to your modified Sun 2A3? Which do you prefer?

Best Regards
Dennis

[JLM]

First I'll state that I'm not a "tube guy".

Heat generation is largely a factor of power rating and circuit design.  A class "A" circuit is not common among solid state, but boy can they heat a room with the best tube amps.

IN SUPPORT OF SOLID STATE:

Solid state amps have higher damping factors, so bass (especially deep bass) doesn't get bloated (undefined/exagerated) that can happen with tubes.

Solid state amps very little warm-up time/effect compared to tubes.

Solid state amps of the same model all should sound alike versus tubes that vary by the individual tubes used.

Solid state amps don't change sound throughout their lifetime as tubes do as the tubes themselves age.

Solid state amps should run for many years without attention (until the capacitors eventually age or switch/contacts need cleaning) compared to tubes that typically need power tube swaps annually.

OTOH:

Tube amps are a simplier, more purist vintage approach.

Tubes each provide a signature sound, so you can vary by tube brand, type, and/or as they age.

Tube amps are often better built.

SO:

Tubes are more interactive, hobbist, finicky, and emotionally based.

Solid state is more set it and forget it.

NOTE:

Most consider that tubes work best in pre-amps where they normally last longer and are often of a smaller/less expensive type.


I'm not trying to start a fight or a debate, just expressing my opinion.  Now where is my flame resistant suit?

[BrianM]

Hi Ken,

As you may or may not know there are also so-called "hybrid" amplifiers that implement both vacuum tube and solid state circuitry.  I enjoy mine for its ability to sort of "split the difference" between traditional tube and SS sound.  Why settle for one or the other when you can have it all?    So you can read up on one maker's approach here:

http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/amplifier/fetvalve_amps.htm

..but there are certainly others (e.g. Moscode, Butler) who use tubes in different ways.

[Wayner]

I think alot depends on the pre-amp driving the amp. I think a tube pre-amp driving a tube amp can start to sound mushy. I do like the sound of a tube pre-amp driving a SS amp. The sound is quick and very 3 dimensional. A least that's my preference.

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

I was much like Wayner - preferring tube preamp driving SS amps - the 3 dimensional nature was good.  But 10 seconds in to hearing a SS pre-amp driving mono tube amps and I was sold on that combo instantly.

In my case I went from a Dynaco PAS-4 (tube preamp) happily passing it to Odyssey Khartago Extreme amps to something I've even happier about now.  It has nothing to do with Odyssey offerings - which are superb SS amps (the best SS amps that I ever owned)

The lowest level signals, especially if you enjoy vinyl (typically, 1/20th to 1/400th or less voltage than CD outputs) beg for as clean a step-up as possible.  If you pass that to a capable tube amp(s) (that is, one that is capable of driving your speakers with adequate headroom for peak passages) you have ultra-quiet step-up that can only be achieved with solid state with the purity and  3 dimensionality that tubes bring to your music.

SS preamps seem to provide a 'backbone' of sorts to the music that I haven't been able to approximate with tube preamps.....even those that have been solid state regulated.

If you have tube amps that are either tube or solid state regulated (not rectified), you achieve considerably more chest-thumping bass 'tightness' that is usually the domain of solid state amps.

If you add a powered subwoofer(s) to the mix - you're further relieving your tube amp of the heaviest bass duties and you can achieve some smile-inducing bass heft and 'tightness' back into the sonic realm 

So, SS preamp and tube amps for me - an unlikely electrical match as tubes typically step-up voltages better and solid state better develops current (all the better to drive most complex speaker loads).  The more you simplify your speaker loads, the more tolerant of tube amps your system will be - and you can enjoy the excellent pairing of a SS pre-amp and tube amp(s) more completely

If you're into vinyl especially, you might want to turn your Odyssey / Candela up on it's conventional head and try it...I've never been happier 

My current system:

Bell Dual Mono Integrateds (10 watt tube units powering 6.5" mid-woofers and tweeter)
Mitubishi DA-C20 working as SS phono preamp and providing AM/FM
Gallo TR-1 (100 watt) subwoofer (dedicated below 80hz)
Linaeum Tower speakers (80hz and up)

CD is run straight into the Bell's....the added liquidity of all tube seems to benefit CD playback.

 

[EDS_]

First I'll state that I'm not a "tube guy".

Heat generation is largely a factor of power rating and circuit design.  A class "A" circuit is not common among solid state, but boy can they heat a room with the best tube amps.

IN SUPPORT OF SOLID STATE:

Solid state amps have higher damping factors, so bass (especially deep bass) doesn't get bloated (undefined/exaggerated) that can happen with tubes.

Solid state amps very little warm-up time/effect compared to tubes.

Solid state amps of the same model all should sound alike versus tubes that vary by the individual tubes used.

Solid state amps don't change sound throughout their lifetime as tubes do as the tubes themselves age.

Solid state amps should run for many years without attention (until the capacitors eventually age or switch/contacts need cleaning) compared to tubes that typically need power tube swaps annually.

OTOH:

Tube amps are a simpler, more purist vintage approach.

Tubes each provide a signature sound, so you can vary by tube brand, type, and/or as they age.

Tube amps are often better built.

SO:

Tubes are more interactive, hobbyist, finicky, and emotionally based.

Solid state is more set it and forget it.

NOTE:

Most consider that tubes work best in preamps where they normally last longer and are often of a smaller/less expensive type.


I'm not trying to start a fight or a debate, just expressing my opinion.  Now where is my flame resistant suit?

I agree almost entirely.  I must add the 6550 output tubes in my Cary SLI-80 have worked flawlessly for more than 3yrs.  I think output tube life has much to do with the designer's goals, requirements and expectations regarding the output tube's duty.

I have an Ampeg R-15-R (Superbreverb) guitar amp that has it original 1964 tube compliment (it is possible my dad replaced the 12ax7 reverb tube it looks new than the others).  It's mostly retired now....but it used to be run at.

[woodsyi]

Tubes for mid/high and SS for bass.   

[zybar]

Tubes for mid/high and SS for bass.   

I agree that this can be a great combination.

I get this in my current setup:

Bella Extreme 100's (100Hz and up)
Vandersteen 5A's (ss powered subs from 100Hz down)

I do think you can get very good bass from tubes, but it needs more careful matching with the speaker.

George

[Bigfish]

Tubes for mid/high and SS for bass.   

Woodsyi and George:

The combination of SS for the bass and Tubes for the mid/Teeters would seem to be a good match.  I know that at least one person is going that route with his new Emerald Physics CS2 Speakers.  I believe the CS2s have an external crossover and you have to biamp (from comments I have read) but isn't it difficult to biamp most speakers?  I am just too new to this hobby to understand how to do so.

Ken

[zybar]

Tubes for mid/high and SS for bass.   

Woodsyi and George:

The combination of SS for the bass and Tubes for the mid/Teeters would seem to be a good match.  I know that at least one person is going that route with his new Emerald Physics CS2 Speakers.  I believe the CS2s have an external crossover and you have to biamp (from comments I have read) but isn't it difficult to biamp most speakers?  I am just too new to this hobby to understand how to do so.

Ken

Ken,

I have CS2's and will be trying a few different combinations with them:

1.  ATI 1506 amp for everything
2.  ATI 1506 for bass and McAlister PP150 for mid/tweet
3.  ATI 1506 for bass and Bella Extreme 100's for mid/tweet
3.  Bella Extreme 100's for bass and McAlister PP150 for mid/tweet
4.  McAlister PP150 for bass and Bella Extreme 100's for mid/tweet

I might also have a different all tube option as well.   

Lots of fun over the next few weeks. 

George

[TerryO]

I'll throw in my vague, uninformed, highly opinionated 2 cents worth on this. Tubes can sound like anything, it depends on the design and the matching speakers. One of the reasons that tubes may have booming bass, or seem to, is that the impedance of the speakers woofers isn't as controlled as it should be. This really plays havoc with the demands made on tube amps. The huge damping factor of SS is a result of vast amounts of negative feedback used to get linear results from the transistors. Triodes are inherently the most linear devices that are used in amps and need little, if any, negative feedback hence damping factor. As Nelson Pass has demonstrated, with his recent efforts, you can have your cake and eat it too.
If you build a speaker with a narrow bass impedance swing then just about any competently designed tube amp will give good solid bass within it's rated limits. Too often SET amps are asked to perform a monumental task of driving impossible loads at levels beyond their capacity. Class A transistor amps are usually better sounding than AB amps (again, if competently designed!). However, one of the best amps I've ever heard were the Tube Research 800 watt class A tube amps. No Bass bloat here Folks. Plenty of bass, which a high damping factor tends to attenuate, as anyone that has simply used a series resistor between their SS amp and a speaker can testify.
Obviously, there's a lot more to it than what I've mentioned, as whole books have been written on these and other factors in amplifier design. The point is that an understanding of how the variables function has to be taken into account when putting together a system or you'll spend a whole lot of money to get an inferior sound compared to your friend whose simple system seems to run circles around yours.

Again, these are just my opinions and I've been wrong before :^)

Best Regards,
TerryO

[lazydays]

here's my thoughts on this often cussed and discussed subject.
   I've owned a few tube amps in the past (and still own three), and I've owned my share of solid state amps. Before I put Odyssey amps in my downstairs system I had (at one time) a Sonic Frontiers 45 watt amp, and switched it for an Anthem Amp One. The SF was a little more liquid and maybe a touch more transparent. Before that I went thru several S.S. amps, and got to where I wouldn't turn the system on. Before this system I had a system using an Accuphase intergrated, and it was much different than the other S.S. I went thru. Even somewhat liquid like tube amps. In the system I have now I went thru six preamps. Three were tubed, and that was a no contest. The tubed preamp is the way to go.
    The Odyssey is by far the fastest solid state amp I've heard, but really dosn't have the solid state glare that many amps have. The Accuphase was very powerfull as well, and would drive most any 8 ohm speaker with ease. In some respects they have a similar sound quality (to me anyway these two amps sound much different than the normal solid state amp). The tube amps are very warm, and very smooth in sound quality. Have plenty of power. Never had a heat issue with any of the amps I've mentioned, but thought one Adcom I had was going to become a firetrap. I've heard that Kartagos will run hot, but have never seen one so I don't know. Lastly the only amps I've ever had problems with were solid state (discounting tube failure).
     Something I kinda happened upon while touring the world of hi end speakers was impedence curves, and how they seem to effect sound quality. I currently use a pair of Meadowlark Kestrel hotrods (very tube friendly and an impedence curve tailored for tubes). The sound from the Odyssey amps and the S.F. are actually similar, but the Odyssey is much faster with a greater bass presence. Have long felt that that was a product of the impedence curve associated with the tube friendly speakers. We'll find out soon enough when my Lorelie II's are delivered.
gary

[JoshK]

Hi Ken,

Well you can get a push-pull tube amp (211s or 845s or 300Bs) which could have enough power to drive your hard-to-driven speakers. SS amps do have power but they do not have a blooming and sweetness characteristic of tubes. Some class A (but actual class A/B) SS amps run hot too.



Tan

Tan, I have noticed your monoblocks pictured in your gallery a number of times with great aww.  Are those your monoblocks?  I am very impressed!

[acd483]

It's so frustrating as tube amps are right up my alley in terms of design and coolness factor. SS just trumps them in every other way for my musical tastes. Maybe I need to buy a tube amp and just turn it on for kicks. Mmmm...tube glow!

[twitch54]

I too tend to agree with "TerryO", system synergy, especially ones speaker selection plays a big part. Example........Klipsch.... the number of SS amps that can do justice to a pair of KlipschHorns you can count on one hand but tube driven amps abound that can really make the classic speakers perform.

We have an interesting discussion going on over @ www.martinloganowners.com relative MAC 275 vs. SS which has generated some interesting feedback.

[RobertB53]

The bad thing about tube amps is that it takes thirty years for the output transformers to break in.  (Only kidding.)  If you ever want to try the revelatory experience of passive preamplification, a tube amp is likely to have a benign input impedance.  A reporter once asked Al Capp, illustrator of the Li'l Abner and Daisy Mae comic strip, why his female models were so well-endowed.  "Because I have a choice," he replied.  So, why do I prefer tube amps?  Because I have a choice.

(Listening to Alison K. and Robert Plant through a passive and the amp section of a Stromberg-Carlson 6bq5 integrated as I type.  So, when do I get to hear Stephen Stills sing with Hazel Dickens?  Now, that would be something.)