Should I spend more than the MMF-7?

Hoots · « **on:** 15 Sep 2003, 01:56 am »

I've been thinking about a TT upgrade and have been thinking about these:

Music Hall MMF-7 (seems to be a great value w/cartridge--ie affordable)

would more expensive options like the VPI Scout be a notable upgrade? I would then need to select a cartrige for the Scout.

I've also thought about a used LINN.

I'm currently using a MMF-5 (I don't like the low riding cartridge).

Brad · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Sep 2003, 02:22 am »

The Scout is quite a bit more than the '7, isn't it?

I tend to trust Art Dudley's ears - he raved about the Scout in 'phile.
You can get it with a Dynavector 10x5 or 20xh/L pre-installed.

Of course, Michael Fremer thinks the '7 is a better price/performer than the MMF-9 in the Music Hall line, so......ymmv.

I have an MMF-5 now and when I upgrade, it will be to a Scout or a Teres (unless there is something better out by then

)

Cheers - and let us know what you decide and how it works out.

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 Sep 2003, 03:05 am »

Hoots,
Won't the MMF-7 also come with a Goldring cartridge?? Does the Eroica ride higher than the MMF-5 Goldring?

Hoots · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 Sep 2003, 03:51 am »

yes...Goldring w/MMF-7...do the other models ride low, too? I would have to check on that before buying.

Here is my problem with the low ride. Some lps have a raised ro warped lip and the cart rubs on the first few revolutions. I only have these problems occassionally and I usually fix it by purchasing another copy of the lp.

I read how the MMF-5 is a great stepping stone to high-end TT's so I am curious as to how notable the improvement.

I read the Stereophile "Holly Mother of Crap..." review and may just wait until I'm ready to make the big jump.

I"m looking at my other components exploring plans for scaling higher.
I'm running a modest system of restored Dynaco ST-70 tube amp with new Hovland Music caps and Scott 355 pre/tuner w/Auricaps mated with 1977 Cornwalls.

skchow · « **Reply #4 on:** 15 Sep 2003, 04:17 am »

I have a MMF-7 and I don't find that the cartridge rides low. I have a few closeups of the cartridge in action, and if you like I can post them up for you to see.

Sunny.

Hoots · « **Reply #5 on:** 15 Sep 2003, 04:27 pm »

That would be of interest...

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 12:52 am »

I think MGalusha has an MMF-7, although I'm not sure. You may want to ask him. He copied a couple of LPs for me, and while they didn't sound that great when they were new, I haven't noticed that the copies exhibited any unusual colorations. But I'll admit, even if they had, it's still probably the best 'table they've ever been played on.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 12:59 am »

It's me again, promoting the benefits of the Creature on steroids...

The 1200's s-shaped tonearm has damping on the rear end where the counterweight plugs in and the tube is bent at two unequal locations to avoid standing waves. It has no resonance. In this price range is the undisputed contender.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 12:47 pm »

There are Rega armboards available for the 1200 (search Asylum) and some people have posted success in installing other arms. The arm is the 1200's weak link but it is still a good arm--it just needs some control and the fluid damper mod brings about the positive improvement. Never had any problems with my VTA or bearings. Technics is the only company I've seen publishing bearing friction specs. A TT must be chosen by relying in no small measure on analyzing the engineering content of each particular unit considered. That's something that you will rarely see in audio forums. People will just parrot away "Buy a Rega 2', "Buy a Music Hall", "Buy a Project Perspective", but if you ask them technical questions related to ultimate performance they will be unable to answer. They'll say "Belt drive is better than direct drive", crap like that, but unsustainable. For example, the Rega's idea of having the belt drive the platter under the spindle is more stable and less vibrating than the VPI Scout's perifepherial driving, but the Rega's assembly is pretty crappy and from what I understand the bearing per se is pretty cheap, too!

You will not find a perfect TT, much less in this price range.

Perhaps Roy Hall said it right, though in a non diplomatic way: "Learn to live with the foibles." I'd say "Learn to live with the foibles or get a 1200 and do the mods!".

I plan to drive to NJ in the next few weeks and have the new KAB outboard power supply installed...

http://www.kabusa.com/

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?raccs&1033259530&read&3&4&

skchow · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 04:51 pm »

Okay, here are the photos of the cartridge in action. I just realized these pictures are a bit old, and at that time I haven't bothered fixing the finger lever thingy that was bent out of shape from the shipping.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=105
Pictures

Sunny.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 06:34 pm »

Quote from: Larkston Zinaspic

Thanks for the info, Psyche.

So what you're going to wind up with after all the modding is basically what KAB is calling their "Audiophile Standard" turntable, right? You say you consider the 1200 to be a best buy in its price range, but are we talking standard price range (about $400), or KAB's price (about 3x the standard amt.)?

KAB's article on this TT states: "Why, it can cost $100,000.00 or more to develop a single Application Specific Integrated Circuit like those found in the 1200." Don't you ...

1) You're welcome.

2) My Creature will eventually be much better sounding than Kevin's "audiophile standard".

3) $ 100K to develop an IC? Sounds reasonable. Electrical engineers out of college w/ no experience (or a flimsy intership at most) are earning 60K (add benefits to that). An experienced team + lab personnel and facilities' shop time working a month or two--$100K? That's cheap! Kevin is right. None of these so called "high end TT " audio companies have the deep pockets and R&D facilities Matsushita has. They're still wrapping a belt around a pulley...

4) This implies a different hierarchy of what is of sonic importance. A lot of people don't get it.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 02:43 am »

I will have Robert Shult of Ridge Street Audio Designs rewire the tonearm with Cardas tonearm wire and replace the stock interconnects with Midnight Silver Edition Generation II interconnects. How much? Probably $400-450. He said "It will blow you away...". I believe it. I have a set of Gen I and a set of Gen II's and they are outstanding interconnects that are kicking some serious ass at a much lower price than their competitors. You can check out the reviews in Audiogon. They are causing a stirr. Oh, I plan to have the tonearm tube cryo treated, too!

The creature is posed to be a serious performer.

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 03:18 am »

Quote from: Hoots

I've been thinking about a TT upgrade and have been thinking about these:
Music Hall MMF-7 (seems to be a great value w/cartridge--ie affordable)....I'm currently using a MMF-5 (I don't like the low riding cartridge).

I apologize for interrupting Psychicanimal's thread, but may I be so bold as to return to the original question??? I stumbled on the Listener mag that reviews the MMF-7: if Hoots would like a scan, I'd be glad to post it.
Of course, it wouldn't actually be a scan of original copyrighted material, but I would read the article and paraphrase its contents (fairly exactly).

Sorry for the interruption: back to the Temple of Technics House of Worship. Can I get an "Amen"??

doug s. · « **Reply #13 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 12:25 pm »

if i were gonna buy a new turntable for <$1k, the technics would be at the top of my list. but being cheap,

i'd be looking for a used deck. i'd hold out for an oracle, well-tempered, sota, pink triangle, roksan, or vpi. others i'm not familiar with, such as those by nottingham, michell, etc, would also be possibilities.

ymmv,

doug s.

Hoots · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 02:47 am »

Thanks for the info and pics. My MMF-5 Goldring rides much lower too the point where I checked to make sure I'm not putting too much pressure on it.

I could upgrade the cart but then I should buy a 7 to start. My table is 90 days old yet I think a $700-$800 TT/cart solution would be nice. I really would prefer the higher ride.

There seems to be the Technics camp, the MMF-7 new camp, and a variety of used options.

I would read the review but I'm not hungry enough to worry about copyprotection or ask you to go out of your way to share the info.

I have 2,500 lps most of which are at least VG+ or better. I've always like listening to my rock record collection.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #15 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 01:14 am »

Quote from: Larkston Zinaspic

If a fully modded 1200 would run about $1,200 (or more for "the Creature"), how well would a Basis 1400 stack up to it, since we're now almost at the same price point?

You have enough information to figure that one out...

Hoots · « **Reply #16 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 01:52 am »

http://members.aol.com/kjohnsonhp/cart.jpg[/url]

Beezer · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 01:58 am »

Quote from: Larkston Zinaspic

If a fully modded 1200 would run about $1,200 (or more for "the Creature"), how well would a Basis 1400 stack up to it, since we're now almost at the same price point?

No comparison - the Basis would whoop ass on that direct drive P.O.S. with whip cream and cherry on top. I haven't heard either, but that DJ whack is just that - no matter how you dress it up

.

And don't let P.A. tell you otherwise - he's never heard the Basis!

Beez

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 02:40 am »

Quote from: Beezer

No comparison - the Basis would whoop ass on that direct drive P.O.S. with whip cream and cherry on top. I haven't heard either, but that DJ whack is just that - no matter how you dress it up .

And don't let P.A. tell you otherwise - he's never heard the Basis!

Beez

No, but I've talked on the phone with Jennifer Crock (Jena Labs) and she told me she has two TTs: a modded 1200 and a Basis.

See, that's exactly my point: too much ignorance out there combined with arrogance.

Laugh now...

Beezer · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 04:14 am »

And how did they sound over the phone?

Back to the original poster, are you happy with the Music Hall MMF-5 and just don't like the low rider cartridge? If so, the MMF-7 would make sense. It gets pretty consistent praise. The Technics route goes way beyond a simple set up and forget deal, but may be worth it in the long run... I have a Nottingham Interspace, which is about the same price as the Scout. I like it a lot more than my old Rega P-3 I had, and the Rega did get me hooked on vinyl. Perhaps the Nottingham Horizon is another consideration at a price between the MMF-7 and Scout. Do you have any shops nearby where you can listen to any of the contenders?

Beez