LS-9 versus Sonore Statement

Ettepet · « **on:** 28 Oct 2007, 01:33 am »

A Dutch speaker firm has built a quite similar speaker to the LS-9 (link).

It seems a very well thought out design, as many people confirmed after listening to them at a local Audio Show (pics) last weekend. Apart from using probably slightly higher-end components, the $50.000 (!!) Sonore Statements have two design features setting them apart from the LS-9's:

1. Only the drivers in the middle of the line-array get the full signal, the drivers further to the top and bottom get slightly less and less and less. I'm not sure what the precise benefit would be of this approach.

2. The cabinet walls are double layered and can be filled with sand. This would benefit absense of cabinet resonance (coloring), impuls behaviour and efficiency. Mind you, the total weight then becomes 750lbs (i believe this is "per speaker"!).

The first different design feature immediately caught my interest. I wondered what benefits it reaps and if it could be (easily) implemented with the current LS-9. Any idea's, Danny?

ps: I will see if I can get some English links and more info.

gitarretyp · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Oct 2007, 03:00 am »

I can't say i see any more similarity than with any other line array. The Sonore looks more or less like any other line array (as do the ls-6/9), though i don't understand the point of the wings unless it's an open baffle design. It looks like the sonore uses conventional ribbon tweeters (looks like Fountek NeoPro5i to me), while danny's have planars. As for higher quality parts, that's rather subjective.

Your first point is called power tapering. It's well known and is done to help equalize the received level between the outer and inner drivers in the array, but most reports i've seen of people having tried it have found the results negligible. So, it's often not done.

With speakers already weighing ~2-300 lbs and well braced, i can't see adding more weight to the cabinet having much effect.

gitarretyp · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Oct 2007, 03:08 am »

I found another picture of the speakers here. Are the drivers inset lower in the baffle than the wings or is it an optical illusion? Also, judging by the dimensions, i'm pretty sure that's an open baffle line array. That would set it apart significantly from the ls-9.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Oct 2007, 03:12 am »

I see more than just two major differences.

First off that baffle width is quite alarming. This just adds surface reflections and a lot of it. They might as well build them into a wall because it will sound like it is playing from the baffle forward. This type of thing would only make sense if the baffle was open on the back side. If you make the baffles wider you get back some low end response but give up imaging. There are better ways...

I'd be willing to bet money that the LS-9 use higher quality parts, maybe even a lot higher quality.

The ribbon tweeters are a real limitation too.

Power tapering has been tried by just about everybody building line sources. There are pros and cons. I'd didn't care much for it myself.

And $50,000? Well good luck to them.

Ettepet · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Oct 2007, 07:05 am »

Quote from: gitarretyp on 28 Oct 2007, 03:00 am

I can't say i see any more similarity than with any other line array. The Sonore looks more or less like any other line array (as do the ls-6/9), though i don't understand the point of the wings unless it's an open baffle design. It looks like the sonore uses conventional ribbon tweeters (looks like Fountek NeoPro5i to me), while danny's have planars. As for higher quality parts, that's rather subjective.

Your first point is called power tapering. It's well known and is done to help equalize the received level between the outer and inner drivers in the array, but most reports i've seen of people having tried it have found the results negligible. So, it's often not done.

With speakers already weighing ~2-300 lbs and well braced, i can't see adding more weight to the cabinet having much effect.

gitarretyp, thanks for your explanation. Besides the picture the link you provided adds some extra info about design choices. After Danny's post it seems a bit silly to translate it though.

I had to laugh quite a lot (and hard) at several moments with your answer, Danny. I couldn't be present at that show (i work weekends), but knowing several of the attendees they still must have sounded quite good.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Oct 2007, 04:45 pm »

Quote

I had to laugh quite a lot (and hard) at several moments with your answer, Danny.

I struggle to see the funny part.

Hank · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Oct 2007, 06:24 pm »

Probably "lost in translation"

Ettepet · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Oct 2007, 06:38 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 28 Oct 2007, 04:45 pm

Quote
I had to laugh quite a lot (and hard) at several moments with your answer, Danny.

I struggle to see the funny part.

Nothing earth shaking...

The $$$ Sonore with its many design features has (from what I've heard) taken a very long time to develop.

I created this topic to see if one of its features, namely power tapering, could be used to further improve the LS-9. You then go and rip apart (or better put: destroy) the complete design of the speaker. I found the (to me) totally unexpected 180 degree reversal quite funny.

KCI-JohnP · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 Oct 2007, 05:34 pm »

I don't see where Danny "ripped it apart" or "destroyed" it, I think he just stated what he perceives to be design flaws. Just because it took a long time to develop doesn't mean it's well designed.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 Oct 2007, 05:42 pm »

I wouldn't say I what I highlighted were design flaws, but their selected path is not one I would have chosen.

S Clark · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 Oct 2007, 05:44 pm »

These things look to be at least 2 1/2 to 3 feet wide. Imaging will be weak to none- unless I am missing something

.

Bach · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Oct 2007, 02:14 pm »

A $50,000 ought to at least look unique, not like something I could build in my shop. And the Sonore Statements don't look like a $50,000 design to me. But hey, in the world of audio sometimes the more outrageous the price . . .

Now this is something I could not build in my shop:

http://www.mbl-germany.de/recommended.html/recom_101.html

prokennex · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Oct 2007, 03:29 pm »

Those MBL's look like they belong on the starship enterpise.

Milehighguy · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Oct 2007, 06:58 pm »

Those were at the RMAF and sound excellant, as they should for their very high price. They also have a "stacked" version now with another tweeter and woofer inverted and placed on top of the normal ones. I heard them (the normal version) last year playing the 1812 overture and felt that they couldn't quite do the lowest octave convincingly. Not enough visceral bass like you might get with, say, the LS-9's... aa

Daygloworange · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Oct 2007, 11:30 pm »

I heard the MBL's at RMAF this year, and I didn't like them at all.

Cheers

Bach · « **Reply #15 on:** 31 Oct 2007, 06:13 pm »

As I recall, I think the room they were in was hot, but the highs were damped by a large crowd of listeners (and their clothing.)

Seems that when I heard them in a crowded room they sounded much better than with a few people.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #16 on:** 1 Nov 2007, 12:14 am »

Then I don't know what to say,

because the room was packed when I was there. We had to wait almost 20 minutes to get in the sweet spot.

I don't think their room was any hotter than anyone else's. I heard some other speakers in similar rooms where there was no brittleness to the sound like there was there.

Honestly, I had much higher hopes for that speaker given that they were being driven by MBL gear.

Cheers

Ettepet · « **Reply #17 on:** 1 Nov 2007, 11:10 am »

Had a very busy week...

Quote from: Bach on 30 Oct 2007, 02:14 pm

A $50,000 ought to at least look unique, not like something I could build in my shop. And the Sonore Statements don't look like a $50,000 design to me. But hey, in the world of audio sometimes the more outrageous the price . . .

They are 35,000 euro, which should mean: around $50,000. Audio-math

has speaker prices (almost) doubled in Europe, so this could mean they would really cost US $25,000 - $35,000.

Quote

Now this is something I could not build in my shop:

http://www.mbl-germany.de/recommended.html/recom_101.html

These were also at the show, and got a far less unanimous vote of approval from the htforum.nl members. Nearly everyone mentioned problems with its bass.

Dynaudio had a very good setup at the show with its Sapphires.

Bach · « **Reply #18 on:** 1 Nov 2007, 02:57 pm »

Quote

They are 35,000 euro, which should mean: around $50,000. Audio-math has speaker prices (almost) doubled in Europe, so this could mean they would really cost US $25,000 - $35,000.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something in translation here or not. But maybe I should have said "A 25,000 - $35,000 design ought to at least look unique, not like something I could build in my shop."

And no matter how they sound, the MBL's "are not something I could build in my shop."

Ettepet · « **Reply #19 on:** 1 Nov 2007, 07:50 pm »

Quote from: Bach on 1 Nov 2007, 02:57 pm

I'm not sure if I'm missing something in translation here or not. But maybe I should have said "A 25,000 - $35,000 design ought to at least look unique, not like something I could build in my shop."

And no matter how they sound, the MBL's "are not something I could build in my shop."

A save bet would be that most intended customers do NOT built their own speakers or cabinets.

LS-9 versus Sonore Statement

S Clark