[OBF]

I've been thinking a little bit about different ways to build a system and would like to get input on what I think is an interesting question.  My starting point is a fairly balanced system from a cost perspective.  My TacT 2.2x is by far the most expensive piece, but nothing is really out of place in relation to everything else.

However, I've been thinking about the old axiom that the most critical components to good sound....starts with the room.  So for my question assume a decently treated room as a starting point.  I don't have a TON of treatments, but I do have some corner bass traps in 3 of 4 corners and also OC703 panels at 1st reflection points and behind the speakers.  So...that said....next in line are the speakers.  I like my Ellis 1801Bs (although they are not perfect for my listening style), but going by this theory I'm throwing around the following question.

Given a pre-treated room and a budget of not more than $4k - $5k would you rather have:

1.  SOTA speakers like the AV123/GR Research LS-6 or Emerald Physics CS2s + much more modest gear, or

2.  A balanced system with approx $1k each devoted to front end, pre, power, and speakers.  This could slide around some but you probably get the basic gist.

I didn't want this to be a question of specific componets as everyone has different ideas, but rather one of general philosophy.  I gave the example of the LS-6 and CS2 just because of all the buzz and because I think most would view them as SOTA speakers that should perform above their price point.  Also note neither of these speakers systems needs a sub/s and part of the key in moving away from my TacT RCS is having a treated room and NOT needing an active crossover for subs.  If a person prefers something else, that's fine as my basic question is still valid:  most SOTA for approx $3k vs. anything in the $1k zone.  That doesn't leave much for other equipment but that's my point.  There are certainly plenty of options....something like a used Bella Extreme 3205 (in integrated amp form) + Oppo DVD + NOS DAC.  The actual components are not important just that the speakers cost double everything else put together.  With the CS2 example the Bella wouldn't work for this scenario, but assume any 4 channels of competent SS amplification or SS/tube mix.

I think there's a good chance a person would come out on top with option 1 if they do a careful job of picking up bargain pieces, but I'm curious as to what other people think.  Either way it's tough as option 1 would mean selling my TacT and AKSA 100N+, both of which I like, but if I end up with better results that's the name of the game right?

Thanks,
Mark

[EDS_]

Great question.

How about.....

(1 to 1.5K$)Oppo or other uber cheap player + a good DAC with USB so you could incorporate a PC/laptop source when ready
+
(1 to 2K$) for a nice integrated
+
(1.5 to 2K$) for speakers - Spendor (I love them), Harbeth, GR Research etc.
+
very conservative cabling to begin with


Given the constraints this kind of rig would fit the bill.

My second system...
Oppocheapmachine
Musical Fidelity XDAC-v8 with USB
Cary SLI-80
Spendor S5e
Kimber 8TC and Monster ICs (gasp!)

[jules]

Once upon a time I would have given the speakers a heavy weighting. Now I think from the other end first on the basis that anything, good or bad early in your chain is going to be amplified [or not, if the amp can't "see" it].

So yes, good CDP,  a good DAC with USB and a very carefully selected amp, not necessarily expensive but my own pref. would be for some selected cap. upgrades in key places.

Speakers ... take your pick 

If the detail isn't there before the signal hits your speakers, they sure aren't going to be able to find it for you 

jules

[chadh]

I think it really depends...depends on what kind of things you like, and how much time you're prepared to spend researching and auditioning, whether you're prepared to DIY...

I believe there are great deals out there on super cheap components.  So, if you have the time and opportunity to sift through all of the hype surrounding the newest "giant killers", and to audition high quality used items, and if you're lucky that the particular insane deals you happen to find match up well with one of the SOTA speakers you are eying, then this certainly seems the best way to go from my perspective.  But to make this work, you have to work really hard and still get lucky. 

For example, I would not be surprised to hear someone had spent $50 on a transport, $150 on a DAC, $200 on a used tube pre-amp and $200 on some sort of DIY class-D amplification, then dropped $3000 on speakers, put it all together with volex PCs and zip cord ICs and SCs and ended up with the most sublime sub-$4000 system in the world.  But he had to get lucky that those super cheap electronics (the rare ones that could actually sound good) did in fact mate well with the killer speakers he purchased.

On the other hand, I think you can take a much safer, less time consuming, less taxing route by spending moderate amounts on each of your components and making sure you have a well matched system.  I would like to think this is the approach that I've taken.  None of my components is super cheap, and none is expensive.  But I think I have a well matched, high performance system.  Of course, I'm a lazy bastard, so there was no doubt which route I was going to take.  The price I pay is that my system is unlikely to be the most sublime sub-$4000 system the world has seen.

Chad

[OBF]

Thanks for the comments and ideas people.  Short reply to what's been said so far:

EDS, good point on the USB DAC as I would indeed like to integrate a PC at some point, but not quite ready for the jump yet.  As to the system, I'm sure it would be nice but I wouldn't want to scrap my current setup for something similar but different.

jules, interesting....I agree you can't ADD resolution that's not there.  I probably should have stated that I'm not too far on the detail side of the spectrum.  For instance I can't say what spatial clues are on any of my discs so losing some extreme resolution may be less of a problem for me than some other people.  I do value dynamics and a speaker's ability to sound clean when pushed hard hence my LS-6 idea.

And Chad, yeah, my idea very well might require getting lucky, but I'm not 100% sure about that, hence my internal and external questions.  For instance, I would be a little surprised but not shocked if I found a system of LS-6 and used Outlaw 970 receiver to be as or more satisfying as my current system (for my listening habits) with an easy upgrade path for the future.  Probably not for small ensembles w audiophile recordings, but sound board recordings of live rock music....??  Maybe.  That system would actually allow me to remove about $1k from my system so if I were to be just as happy, BONUS!

[jules]

OBF,

having read Chadh's post I thought it made much more sense than mine but still I'll add this to what I've said ...

It's not exactly a question of detail so much as realism but the thing that's surprised me is that good equipment up to the amp stage can draw better sound out of lesser speakers than you might have thought was possible. Really good speakers with weak supporting gear are rather wasted IMHO 


jules

[Double Ugly]

I'll go with #1 (SOTA speakers), but depending on one's perception of SOTA, the latter part (modest gear) will have to be very carefully selected.

There's a guy in Denmark who says the best speaker I've ever heard (the SP Technology Revelation) can exceptional with well-designed - yet modest - gear, but I've not experienced it.  I've not heard the premium crossover components in his speakers either (top-of-the-line Mundorf), but because I've come to trust his ears through the years, I suspect he's right.

I've heard the speakers you mention, and while I don't personally consider them SOTA, each represents a very good value, especially the CS2s.

FWIW, I'm a huge believer in a speaker-first approach to audio, thus my choice.  IME, building a satisfying system without the right speaker has proven extremely difficult, with "right" being defined in this context as the cleanest, clearest, most uncolored speaker I can find; a true transducer.  To a lesser degree, that even applies to the room treatments since each speaker will interact with the room differently.

Good topic.  Lots of room for differing opinions without too much temptation for arguments.  Virtually everything about this hobby is 100% subjective anyway, but some topics tend to pull the very strongly-opinionated, argumentative types out of the woodwork.

That's my way of saying, "Thanks!" 

[OBF]

OBF,

having read Chadh's post I thought it made much more sense than mine but still I'll add this to what I've said ...

It's not exactly a question of detail so much as realism but the thing that's surprised me is that good equipment up to the amp stage can draw better sound out of lesser speakers than you might have thought was possible. Really good speakers with weak supporting gear are rather wasted IMHO 


jules

Fair enough.  By the way, I'd be all too happy to drive the LS-6s with your Aspen equipment 

[OBF]

Good topic.  Lots of room for differing opinions without too much temptation for arguments. 

Thanks.  That's why I was trying to steer my question to the general side and not so much about specific components (except speakers which I couldn't avoid) as I know there are just SO many choices and so many opinions.

As to your response, from what I hear around here I bet the SP Techs would be right up my alley but I believe they require burly amps of preferably the highest quality...which means they would end up in the:

3.  Other - system too expensive - category if I had provided that option.    The two speakers I chose are either of fairly high efficiency or apparently designed to work with pro-type amps.  However, I'm also curious what your reservations are with the line sources....PM would be fine or if you don't want to say that would be fine too 

[Double Ugly]

The two speakers I chose are either of fairly high efficiency or apparently designed to work with pro-type amps. 

FWIW, the same Danish guy recently said that aside from a pair of highly-modified NuForce V2 SE amplifiers, the best sounding amp he's used with the Revelations is an old Crown Macro-Reference.  You don't get much more "pro-type" than that! 

The new crossover pieces and parts Bob's using have really changed things, and driving them with super high-powered amps is no longer a requirement.  The former president of Clarion Electronics is driving his Timepieces with a 50W tube integrated (says it sounds great!) and I'm driving mine with a pair of 100W monoblocks.

All that is to say that (1) "Burly amps" are no longer required, and (2) they don't have to necessarily be of the highest quality (whatever that subjectively means).

That said, I don't believe I've ever heard a speaker that didn't respond positively to more power and better power, at least to a point.  It's the nature of the beast IMHO.

As to the other, I'll try to remember to send a PM tomorrow.

[DeeCee]

Since you mentioned "philosophy", I am going to give you my take on this (IMHO):

I would go for #1 on your menu of philosophy for the following reasons...

Unless you are rich or don't mind investing the time or you are a talented DIY'er, the fastest way to reaching a satisfactory system is to leverage the maximum amount of gain based on component, synergy, potential for growth (modularity or "buildability") and high "bang per buck".

IMO, speakers provide the most amount of potential for listening quality (for good or evil) and should be the center of your decision.

Take your time and choose wisely - you may listen to the speakers for a long time prior to upgrade, if this is done right (even if the speakers don't match your room - like in my case after a move - the rest of the "good" qualities so much outweigh the "bad" it can delay the need for an immediate upgrade).

Since I mentioned synergy the speaker/amplifier component should be well thought out and selecting an amplifier that works well (not necessarily "perfect" since as a hobby you likely would want to grow the system) with the speaker is a must.

Typically I pick components that are high performers for the dollar that are either modular (improved power supplies, DACs etc.) or a component that is an "all rounder" that performs a good if not "perfect" job until I get a chance for upgrade.

The problem with modularity (unfortunately) is that there is more "stuff" in the way - typically I'm a "simpler is better" kinda guy (although I think it was Einstein that said something like, "Things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler").

The point being that I try to get a good balance so if ANY component is changed then there is either a pretty good chance for a fairly major improvement or it will show you've made a bad mistake - (hey, it happens!).

Well, this is how I do stuff like this (and still manage to have fun and good listening all a the same time!)

Good Luck & Happy Listening!
- DeeCee

[woodsyi]

I am in DU's camp of speakers as first consideration.  The speakers will dictate the amplification.  Try different topology and hear what you like.  I am of the opinion that there doesn't exist a universal system that will do all music well.  So go with a topology that will do your favorite music the best.  Or set up different systems in separate rooms for different types of music.   

[TomS]

Yeah, I've found there are many amps and preamps I can live with, but there are many more speakers I can NOT live with (only a very few I CAN).  I'd start with the speakers, then take care of room treatments, and work backwards from there to mix and match to taste.  Tom

[BrianM]

I would think it'd be possible to have both 1 and 2, but then the 1801s (< $2k) are all the speaker I really want/need.

[OBF]

More good comments....seems the 'speakers first' people have the votes by a slight edge but not much 

It would be nice to be able to audition tons of speakers and then choose one that I like best in the price range and go from there building a system around them.....well Oregon is a nice place but there are some drawbacks too!  Is there going to be an Emerald Physics dealer in Portland?

Also, in order to afford the pre-built arrays I'd have to pre-order them so there would be a risk in that.  But that's the way it is with value-based internet retailers.

BrianM, no fair changing the parameters    But I know what you mean.  I think the 1801s are great, I'm just temped to try something with more slam.  Haven't decided for sure yet.

[BrianM]

BrianM, no fair changing the parameters    But I know what you mean.  I think the 1801s are great, I'm just temped to try something with more slam.  Haven't decided for sure yet.

I don't know what amp you're using or the room size. 1801s are a bit hungry, and I wouldn't say mine were exactly short on slam...but everything's relative of course. (My old problem was too much slam...  )

[bpape]

Speakers and room first.  Select as speaker that does what you want and will work in your room.  Then treat the room accordingly. 

A good source is also critical.  If you don't get it off the recording, nothing else you do can fix it. 

The amp needs to be selected to work well with the speakers and be sufficient to drive them appropriately in the room you're in and with the type of music and volume levels you prefer.

Bryan

[darrenyeats]

First, the type of room treatment depends on the speaker type. If you choose an omni-type speaker then first reflections are part of the speaker's design philosophy. So yes, the room is important but I would view it as a "room-speaker" package in terms of room treatments.

Second, positioning. Most speaker types - closed-box, dipole, omni etc - do better in free space. There are psychoacoustic reasons for this. In short, the brain finds it easier to process reflections as reflections. If the speaker is very near a wall the brain perceives the reflections as a smear of the primary sound. Digital room correction can't fix this perfectly.

Third, buy an SPL meter. The Radio Shack SPL meter works and there are calibration files available (PM me) which are absolutely essential to use it properly. A flat frequency response is the first line of attack in achieving a good sound. No it's not the only thing, but you cannot do without it. So measure it. (Interesting comment here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=46668.msg418653#msg418653.) To fix it do everything possible in the "natural" way with room treatments or by choosing a different speaker.

Fourth, and here is the really controversial part, get some digital EQ. For many many years, as a card-carrying audiophile, this was _total_anathema_ to me but I had an epiphany (see point five). It is VITAL to make best efforts without digital EQ. After you've done this it's likely you'll still need digital EQ in-room. To not use it is to cling to a prejudice (that EQ is cheating) and to deny the truth (that a flat frequency response is the most basic aspect to get right in terms of "high fidelity"). Of course, there are objections to EQ like the addition of distortion. Using digital EQ (like the Inguz plugin for the Squeezebox which is free BTW) does solve a lot of these problems. Done wrongly it sounds horrible...could be instantly horrible - or the kind of horrible that creeps up over time. Nasty. So you need to measure properly i.e. from the listening position, one speaker at a time and point the SPL meter directly to the speaker (since treble is directional). Play your test tones, apply the calibration adjustments and put the corrections into the EQ system. You need an amp and speakers with power headroom. When you do this the results can be nothing less than spectacular.  You asked for bang for buck...this is it. Brain over heart on this one! Be strong!

Fifth, by all means choose sources and amps that you like but realise that the differences are small compared to the differences in speakers and rooms. Yes I vote speaker first. I don't believe all sources sound the same. But a relatively cheap source like the Squeezebox sounds great. Some here would have you believe that this or that CD player will "blow away" the SB3 etc. Actually I believed that my CD player "blew away" the SB3 when I first tried it. Then I did a blind test and I was shocked the SB3 sounded so close to the CD player. It didn't sound that way sighted. Also, as a transport, blind I preferred the SB3 to my Monarchy CD transport, even though when sighted I thought the Monarchy was better! The point being, at the level of sources (and even amps) don't underestimate the placebo effect and don't ever compare anything unless it is *strictly level-matched by SPL meter*. Give it a try...I was shocked. You could say it changed my hifi world

Sixth, simplify. If you can do without a preamp for example then great. I have recently started using my Krell in pre bypass mode and using the SB3's digital volume control. Sounds great and seems certainly no worse. Since you are buying from scratch you can buy a better power amp instead of an integrated...bang for buck again.

Measurement, level-matching, blind tests. They sound so cold and mechanical but don't forget: level-matched and blind you use YOUR ears 100% and you apply YOUR taste 100%. So it's not about taking the fun out of it, it's just about getting the best sound YOU are going to enjoy.

Above is part of my audio philosophy...I hope it is of value to you.
Darren

[carusoracer]

Great Thread

[miklorsmith]

I might alter my approach if I thought this would be "it" for the system, or if it's an upgrade platform.  If the latter, I would definitely pick one piece to build around.  There's an Almarro dealer in Portland, see if they'll let you try out the 318B integrated amp.  It's right around $2k and could be the launchpad for a killer system in that range.

If there are no upgrades planned for the setup, it still would depend.  If it will be a focused listening station, I would probably go for a more balanced approach.  While the differences with amps/speakers/sources may not be as big as speakers, I feel much of the dissatisfaction audiophiles feel is related to the stuff that's less obvious.

If it's a dead-ender for say a living room where music will be played but not focused on, I would probably go for big money in the speaks, providing sufficient amp power of course.  If it will double for HT, I'd put weight in that idea as well.

When doing your speaker shopping, make sure you talk to the manufacturer or dealer about placement, room size, and power requirements from the amp.  Don't go by sensitivity figures alone on the amp.  This will at least prevent the most egregious of mismatches.