Questions on LS6/LS9's

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Milehighguy

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #20 on: 28 Oct 2007, 07:59 am »
For Rocket Ronnie and whom it may concern;

Top 10 reasons for getting the LS-9's instead of the LS-6's

10) The 6's go down to low 20's and are virtually full range. The 9's go strong to below 20, and are truly full range.

9) The 9's have 50% more driver area, so the 6's drivers have to move 50% farther at any given volume.

8) The 9's are more impressive  looking, and are heavier and harder to steal.

7) Your professional basket ball player friends will hear a difference in high frequencies when they stand up when listening to the 6's, not so with the 9's.

6) The 9's cross over at a frequency 15% lower than the 6's (850hz versus 1khz)

5) The 9's have a deeper cabinet and so the woofer's back wave is better absorbed.

4) The 9's are more efficient than the 6's.

3) The 9's can handle 50% more power than the 6's.

2) The 9's have more clarity and sound more transparent than the 6's, according to the designer. Possibly due to reasons #9,6,and 5.

And the number one reason to get the LS-9's instead of the LS-6's;

Because if you get the 6's, you will always wonder how much better the 9's would have sounded. :scratch:





« Last Edit: 29 Oct 2007, 06:56 pm by Milehighguy »

Sean Parque

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #21 on: 29 Oct 2007, 04:23 pm »
Great List! :)

I should note however that the 6's have the same bass management system as the 9's.

Sean

Milehighguy

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #22 on: 29 Oct 2007, 06:36 pm »
Thanks, glad you liked it. I changed reason number 8, fortunately there's more that 10 good reasons to get the 9's .  :green:
« Last Edit: 29 Oct 2007, 06:49 pm by Milehighguy »

Sean Parque

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #23 on: 29 Oct 2007, 06:50 pm »
The 8 was replaced as that is the shortcut for that smiley.  You can check the box 'don't use smilies' at the bottom before you post to avoid that 8)

Milehighguy

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #24 on: 29 Oct 2007, 06:57 pm »
Thanks for the info on the smileys. I changed the message, and deleted my question as to why typing 8 and )  puts up a  8) smiley.
To get back on the topic, a quote from my friend upon hearing the LS-9's

" If I had these speakers, I would take 3 weeks off work, and just sit and listen to all of my cd's all the way through".

Bach

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #25 on: 30 Oct 2007, 03:00 am »
For Rocket Ronnie and whom it may concern;

Top 10 reasons for getting the LS-9's instead of the LS-6's

10) The 6's go down to low 20's and are virtually full range. The 9's go strong to below 20, and are truly full range.

9) The 9's have 50% more driver area, so the 6's drivers have to move 50% farther at any given volume.

8) The 9's are more impressive  looking, and are heavier and harder to steal.

7) Your professional basket ball player friends will hear a difference in high frequencies when they stand up when listening to the 6's, not so with the 9's.

6) The 9's cross over at a frequency 15% lower than the 6's (850hz versus 1khz)

5) The 9's have a deeper cabinet and so the woofer's back wave is better absorbed.

4) The 9's are more efficient than the 6's.

3) The 9's can handle 50% more power than the 6's.

2) The 9's have more clarity and sound more transparent than the 6's, according to the designer. Possibly due to reasons #9,6,and 5.

And the number one reason to get the LS-9's instead of the LS-6's;

Because if you get the 6's, you will always wonder how much better the 9's would have sounded. :scratch:


Top 10 reasons for getting LS-6's the instead of the LS-9's

10) "Virtually full range" is fine, since stereo is a "virtual" reproduction of music anyway. Besides, if you really want those extra Hz, you can add a subwoofer, though I think that putting one with the L6’s would be overkill for many, and then you have to fidget with the integration of the two. So I'll give you this one.

9) Good point, I suppose. But even then, I could hardly even see the LS6 woofers moving at a level louder than I would normally listen. I guess if you have a large room, go with the 9.

8) They are both impressive looking, but the LS6 would fit into more average room sizes than the LS9. In that sense, it is more flexible, and has the added benefit of higher WAF. Besides, all learned lovers can attest to the fact that "performance is more important than size."

7) I abhor most all professional team sports, and therefore don’t have any “professional basket ball player friends.” I heard no difference in high frequencies between sitting and standing with both speakers, but then I’m a lowly 5’ 7”. But hey, that’s taller than Al Pacino, Dustin Hoffman, and even Tom Cruise (he just won’t admit to it).
 
6) I’m unconvinced of a benefit here that could be heard. Danny is an excellent designer, and these are both stellar performers, using the same drivers, and voiced alike. Great designers can do those kinds of things.

5) Is this a measurable effect? Besides, if I buy the LS6 kit, I can make them as deep as I want, as long as I don’t change the volume. Again, the LS6’s are a bit more flexible here, based on smaller size and are less expensive.

4) And if you prefer lower power tubes, that could be a benefit.

3) If they’re “more efficient than the 6's” then they need less power, not more----so what’s the point?

2) Maybe true, but there is no way to prove this, and we all hear in our own ways. Unfortunately, this cannot be measured.

And the number one reason to get the LS-6's  instead of the LS-9's;

You want "state of the art" sound that betters many speakers that are many times the cost, but you don’t have as much cash as Milehighguy. For the kit version, the LS6 is an absolute steal.


Milehighguy

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #26 on: 30 Oct 2007, 08:13 am »
Quote
Top 10 reasons for getting LS-6's the instead of the LS-9's

10) "Virtually full range" is fine, since stereo is a "virtual" reproduction of music anyway. Besides, if you really want those extra Hz, you can add a subwoofer, though I think that putting one with the L6’s would be overkill for many, and then you have to fidget with the integration of the two. So I'll give you this one.

9) Good point, I suppose. But even then, I could hardly even see the LS6 woofers moving at a level louder than I would normally listen. I guess if you have a large room, go with the 9.

8) They are both impressive looking, but the LS6 would fit into more average room sizes than the LS9. In that sense, it is more flexible, and has the added benefit of higher WAF. Besides, all learned lovers can attest to the fact that "performance is more important than size."

7) I abhor most all professional team sports, and therefore don’t have any “professional basket ball player friends.” I heard no difference in high frequencies between sitting and standing with both speakers, but then I’m a lowly 5’ 7”. But hey, that’s taller than Al Pacino, Dustin Hoffman, and even Tom Cruise (he just won’t admit to it).
 
6) I’m unconvinced of a benefit here that could be heard. Danny is an excellent designer, and these are both stellar performers, using the same drivers, and voiced alike. Great designers can do those kinds of things.

5) Is this a measurable effect? Besides, if I buy the LS6 kit, I can make them as deep as I want, as long as I don’t change the volume. Again, the LS6’s are a bit more flexible here, based on smaller size and are less expensive.

4) And if you prefer lower power tubes, that could be a benefit.

3) If they’re “more efficient than the 6's” then they need less power, not more----so what’s the point?

2) Maybe true, but there is no way to prove this, and we all hear in our own ways. Unfortunately, this cannot be measured.

And the number one reason to get the LS-6's  instead of the LS-9's;

You want "state of the art" sound that betters many speakers that are many times the cost, but you don’t have as much cash as Milehighguy. For the kit version, the LS6 is an absolute steal.

Here's my reply to your reply.

9) The point is not how loud you might listen, just that  at whatever level you are listening at, The LS-9 drivers are moving significantly less, meaning faster response, faster settling (less inertia), and lower distorton at all volumes.

8 As long as your room is at least 7.5 feet tall, they will fit. I also find that listening at close distances sounds great. WAF and decorator issues are subjective, but for your male friends at least, the 9's have more "wow" factor. And you have to admit, they are harder to steal :lol:

7) You don't have to hang with shaq, but if you have friends over 5'10" they may appreciate the 9's more. A  6'2" friend of mine who went with me to the show thanked me for getting the 9's since he could hear a difference in the 6's treble response when he stood up.
I'm 5'10 1/2" and I could hear a minor change.

6 Danny is an excellant designer, and he is the one who said that the lower crossover point makes a difference in the improved sound quality that he and others heard in the 9's compared to the 6's. This wasn't my idea.

5) Again, I also got this notion from Danny that a deeper cabinet kills the backwave better, and maybe that's part of the reason that the 9's sound better than the 6's. If you make the 6's deeper, they will be shorter and then you have more of the vertical dispersiion problem.

3) The point is increased dynamic range, hopefully resulting in a more effortless and realistic performance.

2 The consensus from several folks who heard the two speakers in the same place with the same system is that the 9's sound distinctly better. Some of the above considerations are attempts to explain that shared observation. You could measure this if you did blind tests like the recent amp and speaker "shootouts".

1 I agree that the LS-6 kit is a steal. But if it's a kit you're building then the price between the two models is even less than the pre-builts, and you should consider the LS-9's even more seriously.

I know that anyone who gets the 6's will never be unhappy with them, but with the chance of getting the LS-9's for not a lot more, I just want people to think twice about it.









Bach

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #27 on: 30 Oct 2007, 02:29 pm »
I know that anyone who gets the 6's will never be unhappy with them, but with the chance of getting the LS-9's for not a lot more, I just want people to think twice about it.


I'll certainly take your advice.

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #28 on: 30 Oct 2007, 03:49 pm »

Problem with the 9's more so than the 6's verses the OBs is weight.

I like to move my speakers around a lot. I think I developed this nerosis by owning Acoustats. I could move them 1/8" and hear a difference.

I heard that Danny uses a dolly to move the LS's. I think I could bear hug the LS's and move them around although the 9's might be harder for sure.

Rocket_making some nice bases for the OB 5's so I have something new in the system to tide me over_Ronny

Daygloworange

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #29 on: 30 Oct 2007, 04:08 pm »
Adjusting the speaker's position around is not a problem, whether it's the 6's or 9's. There's an easy way, even on carpet. I'll post some pics of how to do it.

Cheers

Milehighguy

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #30 on: 30 Oct 2007, 06:47 pm »
My LS-9's are on carpet. I have not attatched the base yet, so it is not at all hard to slide them around. I'm thinking that when I have settled on a final placement, I will then put on the bases and spikes. With a wood or other hard floor, you could put them on a small rug with the rubbery side up next to the speaker bottom, and the more slippery side to the floor and then slide them around that way until they are in the right spot. Naturally, if you have rambunctious pets and/or children you need to find the right spot sooner rather than later :lol:. Also, the 9's have a very wide and consistent horizontal dispersion, and are not bipolar, so they may be less fussy as to placement than some types of speakers such as electrostatics.

TomS

Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #31 on: 30 Oct 2007, 07:48 pm »
It has been suggested to use the furniture sliders until you get them positioned where they sound best, then nail down the spikes.  I like the notion of putting the sliders on the bottom of the base, then having a set of spikes that screw up and down from the top side like landing pads.  Slide them in place, then lock down the spikes with a power screwdriver from above.

DGO - there may be opportunity for some nicely customized bases, even for us AV123 customers.  Lots of chat about that over on their forum already.  Sounds like maybe you already have something in mind.

Tom
« Last Edit: 30 Oct 2007, 09:16 pm by TomS »

KCI-JohnP

Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #32 on: 30 Oct 2007, 09:15 pm »
It has been suggested to use the furniture sliders until you get them positioned where they sound best, then nail down the spikes.
Tom

Right on the mark Tom, I have two sets of those sliders still in the package sitting in my room just waiting.... aa

John

Bach

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #33 on: 31 Oct 2007, 06:29 pm »
So, this prompted me to measure using Danny's suggestion for spacing, and I can fit the LS-9's in my room  :D. So if I decide to spend the extra $755.00, can I tell my wife it's all your fault?

Milehighguy

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #34 on: 31 Oct 2007, 07:20 pm »
If that question was directed at me, sure, I'll be glad to take the heat. :icon_twisted:

What I would tell her, other than the "top ten reasons", is that this is a speaker you will have for a long time, so it's important to get it right.

Also the extra expense should be averaged over the length of ownership- $755 over ten years is $75.50 per year or $6.29 per month.

Plus, when (or if) you ever sell the speakers, you will get more $$ for the 9's, and this extra $$ will pay back part or all of the initial extra expense. :thumb:

Bach

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #35 on: 1 Nov 2007, 12:29 am »
If that question was directed at me, sure, I'll be glad to take the heat. :icon_twisted:

What I would tell her, other than the "top ten reasons", is that this is a speaker you will have for a long time, so it's important to get it right.

Also the extra expense should be averaged over the length of ownership- $755 over ten years is $75.50 per year or $6.29 per month.

Plus, when (or if) you ever sell the speakers, you will get more $$ for the 9's, and this extra $$ will pay back part or all of the initial extra expense. :thumb:

Right On!  :bowdown:

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #36 on: 11 Nov 2007, 12:35 am »

Can anyone comment how the LS's compared to the SP Technologies and Emerald Physics speakers? Other than what RAW and GR offers, these seem to be top picks.

Thanks,

Rocket_Ronny

Milehighguy

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #37 on: 11 Nov 2007, 07:14 am »
I didn't hear the SP speakers, but did spend some time in the emerald physics room. They sounded good, but I didn't like the bass, or should I say lack of bass. They supposedly go down to 20hz, but I sure wasn't hearing that on the cd I brought, not even close. I was there on Friday when Chad (the designer) had problems with his source components. Saturday he said he had it set up better, but still not much low bass to my ears. I was asking him how a 15" driver went up to 1khz (if my memory serves me, I think that was the x-over point). He explained that he used pro drivers that have light cones and short excursions. O.K., but how do you get low bass from  light cones that don't move too far, in an open baffle? Even with EQ and the cone area of 2 15 inchers, I would think that if you could get 20hz, It wouldn't be a very loud 20hz.
I could be wrong about my theoretical reservations, but bottom line is, I didn't hear much low bass at all, and that's why I personally didn't consider them as a purchase option. Maybe with a good subwoofer...
I should also add that Chad seemed like an honest, smart, and down to earth guy. I'm not saying that he's out to mislead people.
Obviously, I was very impressed with the LS-9 speakers, which have no weaknesses, only glaring strengths, and that's why I got them. :thumb:

TomS

Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #38 on: 11 Nov 2007, 01:03 pm »
I didn't hear the SP speakers, but did spend some time in the emerald physics room. They sounded good, but I didn't like the bass, or should I say lack of bass. They supposedly go down to 20hz, but I sure wasn't hearing that on the cd I brought, not even close. I was there on Friday when Chad (the designer) had problems with his source components. Saturday he said he had it set up better, but still not much low bass to my ears. I was asking him how a 15" driver went up to 1khz (if my memory serves me, I think that was the x-over point). He explained that he used pro drivers that have light cones and short excursions. O.K., but how do you get low bass from  light cones that don't move too far, in an open baffle? Even with EQ and the cone area of 2 15 inchers, I would think that if you could get 20hz, It wouldn't be a very loud 20hz.
I could be wrong about my theoretical reservations, but bottom line is, I didn't hear much low bass at all, and that's why I personally didn't consider them as a purchase option. Maybe with a good subwoofer...
I should also add that Chad seemed like an honest, smart, and down to earth guy. I'm not saying that he's out to mislead people.
Obviously, I was very impressed with the LS-9 speakers, which have no weaknesses, only glaring strengths, and that's why I got them. :thumb:
I'm not sure this is all that appropriate in Danny's circle, but that's totally up to him.  Keep it, move it, kill it - I'm OK with it Danny.  I'll try to stay as factual and objective as possible.

One correction - the guy from Emerald Physics was Clayton Shaw, who is the owner/designer.   Not that price is at all an indicator of sound quality, but in fairness, the AV123 version LS9 is (was) a $4k speaker (WAY underpriced for what it is, now $6k I think), the Emerald Physics $3k, and the SP Revelations are now $20k in "standard" form.  Another $1800 buys a supplemental set of panels (not a sub) for the CS2's with 4 more 15" drivers, however he didn't bring them this year.  In Clayton Shaw's words, this adds impact, though it doesn't really enable the system to play any lower.  So they might come to about $5k including digital crossover, but still requiring multiple amplifiers.

Rocket_Ronny -

I have been lucky enough to hear all three speakers, but under ENTIRELY different conditions, mostly sub optimal, such as hotel rooms (RMAF) and a warehouse (SP).  Each of the three systems comes from entirely different ends of the planet, design wise, to achieve results (pure line source with planars, OB dipole/waveguide/compression driver/active digital XO, and transmission line/waveguide/dome).  All of them are 2-ways, which is interesting with regards to what you can hear in the coherence of all three.  Given the passion, skills, and experience of these designers, each one does many things very special, and are among the best values out there such that you can't go wrong, depending on what you want.

I did not attend the offsite SP Tech party in Denver and much has been said about that demo in the SP Circle that certainly doesn't need repeating or reinforcement here (please don't, all you SP guys).  They weren't really being demo'd at the hotel much, at least the times I stopped by.  I did, however, have a personal demo of an early pair of Mundorf version Revelations for several hours at Bob's shop (a BIG warehouse) a few months ago, with my own gear, and I think it's reasonable to say that the bass they make is simply other worldly.  If pipe organ fundamentals and pure bass impact are one of your first priorities, the SP is a very good place to start.  A fanatically well engineered and executed waveguide and cost no object crossovers take care of the rest.

The LS9's were set up in a large room at RMAF with the Red Rock tube amplifiers.  Again, a lot has been said about this that I can't add much to.  In my opinion, they didn't really strut their stuff until Gary brought his Battery Preamp/120 mono's into the mix for a couple of hours one evening.  It was a quick setup change, without the lavish attention given to the other room with LS6's.  Danny was personally promoting the LS6's in his own room with familiar Dodd gear and setup, room treatments, as well as great material, much of it customer provided.  They were letting it all hang out in a small hotel room and the LS's didn't disappoint.  Great dynamics, very coherent top to bottom, clean and deep bass, all the good stuff you've been hearing about from Arthurs and now MileHighGuy, among others who have actually heard them in a good environment.

The Emerald Physic CS2's were a totally different breed 'o cat.  Not necessarily "better", just different.  Again, much has been said in other threads/circles, so you might take a look at those.  No one here actually owns them just yet (soon though - see Tweek Geek and Zybar's threads).  Big dynamic impact is not what they're about.  The naturalness and ease with which they portrayed all kinds of music with was something special though.  For me, not being very familiar with OB bass and dipole sound in general other than various Maggies, it was a totally different experience.  No room treatments either.  Ronny, you have the splendid OB5's, so you know of what I speak (other than the sealed bass part).  The Orion faithful would probably say the same thing (but please don't here).  The CS2 uses a waveguide/compression driver for the top, though, so it brings something else to the table I'm not very familiar with.  There's much more to come on these in other circles, so stay tuned on another channel.

With all that said, I have both the LS9's and CS2's on order and coming to my listening room hopefully very soon.  I'd love to have the Revelations too, at least for comparison, but unfortunately it's now well beyond my price point.  Being only an hour or so away from Bob's home base, it would be a lot of fun to try :green:.  What the heck, maybe Rick could bring his ExcelArrays too :o (doh, that's another thread).  In a few more months, when these speakers are in many more people's hands, in their own listening rooms, there will be something more to talk about with regard to how they sound and might compare.  Few will have more than one in their own listening rooms at the same time, so that's really just going to be speculation.

The fun wild card in all this, that is rather exciting to me, is that Danny is working within all of these technologies/approaches at any given time.  Just look at what he's turning out for himself and other clients - much more ambitious OB designs, line sources with planars (GR, AV123), new subs (GR), maybe active/DSP XO (AV123?), a waveguide speaker (AV123), very fine high end compact 2-ways (Usher), etc. 

The future here is indeed very bright and full of choices for folks who need different strokes in their listening tastes.  The excitement comes when Danny and others start integrating these best of breed ideas into more and more unified designs, that are approachable for mere mortals in terms of cost and form factors.  Good new stuff is already here with much more to come!

Tom

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: Questions on LS6/LS9's
« Reply #39 on: 11 Nov 2007, 04:33 pm »

Thanks guys for chiming in.

The reason I asked was that I like the unique approach of all the speakers involved. I suspect they all sound good in their own way and probably could be happy with any of them.

For me it's not so much about trying to get better sound, although that would be great, but more about what makes those speakers sound as they do. I like the Emerald Physics doing a compression driver without the horn, and horn honk issues: as well as the ob bass and digital crossover, bravo. SP's waveguide and transmissionline tech. is well done as well. Prices are now out of reach for many so that is too bad.

Did you say Danny is working on a waveguide speaker? Any more info on that? Did I miss a thread?

Thanks again.  :thumb:

Rocket_Ronny