[GDeering]

I'm a single-driver fan - and know the trade offs, but love the sound.  Still, I want to start exploring a new main system to give me more dynamics (not volume) and speed.  The shear beauty, of the SET single-driver style is going to take a back (second system) seat, I miss toe tapping to an orchestra.

So I'd like to know about VMPS dynamics at low volume for my Brooklyn Apt. Particularly after weekend of show reports (big speakers in little hotel rooms at loud volumes) I kind of wonder what the criteria is for us urban dwellers? 

Anyway...  I'm going to explore other trade offs, and options, in speaker design (well, under 5K trade offs...), so I'm curious with the RM 30's, realistically what's the smallest (untreated) room size that allows them to really show their stuff, and how much volume does it take for them to open up?   

Also, what would the trade offs be if one went down to the RM2s in a small room?


Thanks,


Gregg

[Brian Cheney]

We have used the RM30 in rooms as small as 12x15' with great success, as they can be placed close to the back wall.  The RM2 works equally well in such a space.  It's a budgetary decision which you want to go with.

Most speakers drop out in the bass at low volumes because of lossy crossovers and the loudness effect.  However, with our extremely low DCR coils and series first order crossover, this is much less a problem with VMPS speakers than more conventional designs.

[John Casler]

I'm a single-driver fan - and know the trade offs, but love the sound.  Still, I want to start exploring a new main system to give me more dynamics (not volume) and speed.  The shear beauty, of the SET single-driver style is going to take a back (second system) seat, I miss toe tapping to an orchestra.

So I'd like to know about VMPS dynamics at low volume for my Brooklyn Apt. Particularly after weekend of show reports (big speakers in little hotel rooms at loud volumes) I kind of wonder what the criteria is for us urban dwellers? 

Anyway...  I'm going to explore other trade offs, and options, in speaker design (well, under 5K trade offs...), so I'm curious with the RM 30's, realistically what's the smallest (untreated) room size that allows them to really show their stuff, and how much volume does it take for them to open up?   

Also, what would the trade offs be if one went down to the RM2s in a small room?


Thanks,


Gregg

Hi Gregg,

If VMPS has one quality that is unheralded, it is its ability to offer a nice full and balanced sound at lower volume levels.

And the RM30C and the 626R are the best examples.

To receive full benefit it is best to use a nearfield position, and you will feel like you are wearing headphones with a soundstage.

And the RM30C, has just enough bass (around 35Hz) that you get all the music and the body, without shaking the walls and floors.

Now of course you can add in a small sub for those times when the neighbors are on summer vacation or out to dinner and you want to Rock and Roll, but they are a perfect speaker for this.

As far as the RM2, it too is quite good and will also do the nearfield thing quite well, but the bass goes down to the lower 20's and this might mean that you would have to elevate them a bit.

You may want to check out the RM2jr model available now that is likely the best speaker deal Brian has ever offered.

And if you have never heard the VMPS sound before, it has many of the qualities you like in your single driver rig, in that, even though it is a 3 way speaker, the greatest frequency spread comes from the single neopanel.

From around 280Hz to 7.9Khz it is the Neopanel.

I would suggest the DIRECT DRIVE set up with the OXO for reasons I'll explain in a PM to you.

[John Casler]

Looks like Brian was posting while I was "composing".

[Hipper]

I have a 13' x 8' room with RM30Cs.

However I also have room treatment and a digital equaliser. Both these were essential to get a good sound. I tried with out room correction but it wasn't possible.

http://www.audiocircle.com/systems/index.php?systemid=783

[JLM]

I'm a single driver speaker fan too and have heard the VMPS stuff, mostly the 626.  With its single mid-driver that handles roughly 6 octaves, small footprint, cheaper price, and still reaches into the 30's I definitely found it to be one I could live with in a small space.  It will probably have more bass than you're used to.

I use a nearfield setup (which with "proper" set-up is pretty much what you'd have in a small room) and love it.  It neutralizes much of the room effects and gives a cross between "conventional" set-up and headphone soundstaging.  Images snap into place as you sit down in "the" chair.

Don't know the VMPS line-up very well, but coming from a single driver and being more concerned with lower spls I'd be questioning the larger speakers with multiple mid-drivers (for less focused imaging, especially in a nearfield set-up) or excessive bass.

[GDeering]

Hi  - thanks for the replies,

The room is 12 x 18, and with my speakers (old C&C Abbys) I always found the far-field much better listening experience. 

What the room takes away is compensated by the added coherence of distance. It's only when the family is away that I can listen far-field unfortunately.  I have two spaces (both "family spaces") and I love to move speakers.

So, I am hesitant to think in terms of the near-field, I am much more interested in blend than separation (just to pick an audiophile value at random)  I should add that I created and run a classical music info & listing site for concerts in NYC (classicaldomain.org), over the course of doing this, and hearing a lot more live music (free!), my ears have changed a great deal.  A lot of subjective cues have changed.  I receive a lot of CDs, and the occasional musician, so I need a versatile system. Without big horns, I'm not going to get it with SET.

I appreciate any thoughts, I'm going to move slowly since I'm a non-profit in so many different ways. I made the change to SET a few years ago, so I am going to have to change everything again  - oh to complicate things I also fell in love with the Moscode 410HR amp, but I'm determined to work speaker then back-stream this time!



Hipper, room correction will be an option once I get my bearings.  I am going to see if the WAF has room for room treatments as well.

JLM:  your's maybe the voice of reason - I do fall into the audio-eye-candy school of large ensembles need bigger speakers camp.


I do tend to go on, but the next step will be to hear one of these things!



Gregg

[BobRex]

Actually, you can do it with SET, esp. with the RM30s.  At the extreme end, Roger Gordon (reviewer for Positive Feedback) uses Dehavilland Aries 845 SETs with his RM30s running full range.  I also use SETs, but I went in a different direction.  I use a 2A3 SET (Welborne Moondogs) to power the Neos and tweeter and then cover the bass with the BPS.  I only run into problems when I try to run the levels too high (pretty damned loud) in my 21x17x14 room.  Otherwise, SETs on ribbons is incredible.

What I need to do is throw a cap on the amp's input side to roll off anything below about 240.  That should give me a few dB more oomph on those peaks.  Sometime this winter....

[woodsyi]

I, too, have tried a SET on the ribbons -- WE 300b (Wavelength).  There is some magic in there.  I just couldn't crank beyond 80 dB or so in my 16' x 24' room.

[John Casler]

Hi  - thanks for the replies,

The room is 12 x 18, and with my speakers (old C&C Abbys) I always found the far-field much better listening experience. 

What the room takes away is compensated by the added coherence of distance. It's only when the family is away that I can listen far-field unfortunately.  I have two spaces (both "family spaces") and I love to move speakers.

So, I am hesitant to think in terms of the near-field, I am much more interested in blend than separation (just to pick an audiophile value at random)

Hi Gregg,

I didn't notice the Brooklyn address before. (My daughter is at Pratt)

I suggested the "nearfield" because it offers the least room interaction.  VMPS speakers and seating position is very much like a concert, in that if you sit nearfield, it sounds like you are 5th row center with more immediacy, and when you sit farfeild it is as if you have moved back in the hall.

I appreciate any thoughts, I'm going to move slowly since I'm a non-profit in so many different ways. I made the change to SET a few years ago, so I am going to have to change everything again  - oh to complicate things I also fell in love with the Moscode 410HR amp, but I'm determined to work speaker then back-stream this time!

At 200wpc, the Moscode will certainly drive any VMPS speaker.

I do tend to go on, but the next step will be to hear one of these things!

Gregg

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=10789.40


Look here for Robert Learner (RBLNR) who is in NJ.  He is a reviewer and has the RM40s.

While these are larger, they will have the same sonic character, but with lower bass.

[BobRex]

I, too, have tried a SET on the ribbons -- WE 300b (Wavelength).  There is some magic in there.  I just couldn't crank beyond 80 dB or so in my 16' x 24' room.

I'm good for 95dB peaks, which is loud enough for me.  I don't know why a 300B amp wouldn't do that.  You have RM40s right?  I would think that the extra Neo would add to the sensitivity.

[GDeering]

Thanks I'll be knocking on some e-doors.

Gregg

[woodsyi]

I, too, have tried a SET on the ribbons -- WE 300b (Wavelength).  There is some magic in there.  I just couldn't crank beyond 80 dB or so in my 16' x 24' room.

I'm good for 95dB peaks, which is loud enough for me.  I don't know why a 300B amp wouldn't do that.  You have RM40s right?  I would think that the extra Neo would add to the sensitivity.

By the time I had levels adjusted for the ribbons, RM woofers and the subs on my active crossover, I couldn't really crank to room shaking level.  80 may be a tad low.  I would say 85 dB baseline tops and would break up on peaks on top of that. 

[Jazz and Baroque]

Hi,

There has been some discussion here about "near field" listening.  I have never been clear on what distances qualify.  Are you talking about 3 feet, 5 feet, 7 feet to the drivers???

Thanks,
Mike

[John Casler]

Hi,

There has been some discussion here about "near field" listening.  I have never been clear on what distances qualify.  Are you talking about 3 feet, 5 feet, 7 feet to the drivers???

Thanks,
Mike

Hi Mike,

I don't know if it adheres to the "technical" definition of nearfield in a Recording Studio, but I generally think of nearfield as 6-7ft or less.

[Zheeeem]

I am running RM30Ms in an 11x15 room.  I found that some degree of treatment was needed on the walls behind and immediately alongside the speakers, or else there was some congestion at higher SPLs.  Drivers are about 7 ft from, and toed in to about 1 ft in front of, my listening position.  I seem to be happiest at low to moderate volumes.

[ZMan]

The question of Near Field begs follow up, what kind of music?, preferences to imaging and soundstaging as well as the room dimensions, etc.  I use the 38%rule of acoustics (see Real Traps web or Master of Acoustics Handbook at Amazon).  Using this rule (considering a more or less typical rectangle shaped room) the seating position should be 38% from the front or rear wall to avoid nulls and reflection issues.  If from the front wall, one is presented with a vibrant, "live" soundstage with width and imaging but generally less depth.  If 38% from the rear wall, one is presented with more depth of soundstage, perhaps greater width and a feeling of being more than halfway back in the hall.

Interesting considerations should then be debated, Jazz, Classical, Vocal, each form of music is often associated with a set of traditional descriptors.  One should consider the equipment, the space and the music, etc., to be rewarded with bliss.  If you a Jazz nut like me, I love a 3-D soundstage and the feeling of "being there".  Therefore, I have chosen equipment {VMPS  }, acoustical treatments and a forward listening position to provide such an experience.

If you prefer a more "laid back" presentation, often associated with classical, 38% from the rear wall with appropriate equipment will get you there will some additional consideration for acoustical treatment.

In the end, the RM 30 (without the 10" woofer) or the 626 R (ribbons) would be excellent choices for your situation, add a sub and bliss for sure.

Z

[GDeering]

I am running RM30Ms in an 11x15 room.  Drivers are about 7 ft from, and toed in to about 1 ft in front of, my listening position.  I seem to be happiest at low to moderate volumes.

Hi Jim,

Good, sounds like me.  You had big Maggies in the past (right?), a long time ago you were thinking of trying  horn/single drivers, did you ever sample any giant space takers?


gd

[Zheeeem]

I am running RM30Ms in an 11x15 room.  Drivers are about 7 ft from, and toed in to about 1 ft in front of, my listening position.  I seem to be happiest at low to moderate volumes.

Hi Jim,

Good, sounds like me.  You had big Maggies in the past (right?), a long time ago you were thinking of trying  horn/single drivers, did you ever sample any giant space takers?


gd

Yeah.  I still have a pair of tympani 1(U)s that I rebuilt 2 years ago.  My spousal unit really likes them.  They are way to big for my listening room, so my spousal unit has them in the HT - which is in a 17x23 room.  I had a pair of MMGs w/a Strata 3 to tide me over for a while, but I dunno.  I think the MMGs, while they might be a great value for $550, really kind of suck.  Maybe I'm just tired of dipoles.  I also didn't feel like the room was big enough to also house a sub, so I decided on a (near) full range floorstander.

My shortlist included (used) Quad ESL-63s, (used) AP Virgos, Salk HT3s, and the RM30Ms.  I also considered building my own single-driver speakers (or asking Jim Salk to build me a pair of Martin's QW design boxes with one of his gorgeous finishes.  In the end, there were a lot of reasons for not choosing the others, and no reasons not to choose the RM30Ms.  Big B also was a pleasure to work with and we arranged a few upgrades for a very nice price.

No regrets.  They are fast, musical, coherent, have great range and are fun to listen to.  The room is not ideal, and I reckon they would sound better in a slightly larger room and worse in a smaller room.  I am still thinking of a DIY full ranger one of these days, but not until I'm done remodeling the bathroom.

[GDeering]

Thanks Jim,  Oddly Virgo 1s (bought used) were my first decent speakers.  I still have them.  Though the amount of music that comes through with the fostex puts there virgos to shame. However let's not talk about integrated extension.

Z- really good points and perameters - and in fact my biggest beef with 50's classical - and a lot of classical recording - is that they don't sound nearly as good as your average US 50's jazz recordings (forget the great ones, I'd take a living-room in New Jersey over some of the caverns they have recorded Bach Sonatas in). The mid-hall recording style for chamber music misses a lot of possibilities.  That said I like listening mid-hall in real life. 

So I'm a mid hall guy, I suppose.  My next moniker.


Gregg